ST3

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ST3

Postby whiskywheels » Sat Feb 03, 2018 9:34 am

There's a number of posts here from ST3 users expressing concern about continued support and availability of this excellent program.
I thought I'd start a new thread and see what comments we get from admin and other users. I've been using this for 12 years myself.
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Re: ST3

Postby Yannos » Sat Feb 03, 2018 12:01 pm

Me too, for 10 years approx. I have donated and paid for some fantastic plugins and I cannot figure that ST3 is near to be over.
Could an Administrator give us some information ?
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Re: ST3

Postby skygod » Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:03 am

ST3 (and plug-ins) is the best. After 10 years i have really tried to find some other S/W or web application to replace ST3, I cannot find it.
Really, really sad to end the product... :(
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Re: ST3

Postby FredericB » Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:42 am

I've been using it for 5 years (I explain in details how I use it and which plugins I use here) and I'm also sad that it is being abandoned more and more every year.

I believe they are trying to move their user to their .mobi platform which I understand as "the cloud" seems to be the trend nowadays. Personally, I want my data offline and not rely on a service that can be down anytime (we've seen it these past days with Movescount! :( ) or that can be hacked.
I have scouted the different options and either GoldenCheetah or MyTourBook seems like viable options that are similar and very well and often maintained (I list the major alternatives here) but haven't made the move yet.
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Re: ST3

Postby admin » Tue Feb 06, 2018 1:30 pm

whiskywheels wrote:There's a number of posts here from ST3 users expressing concern about continued support and availability of this excellent program.
I thought I'd start a new thread and see what comments we get from admin and other users. I've been using this for 12 years myself.

Thank you @whiskywheels for voicing your concerns. It's great to hear from our passionate customers that joined us over a decade ago. It's really rewarding to see people still daily using a software program coming up on almost 15 years old. Seriously! And thank you for giving our team a chance to answer your questions.

1. If you've purchased a ST3 license in the past, you can be confident that your license will not expire or terminate and that we will continue to make the software available for download as you need to re-install it or move it to a new machine. Licensed customers will continue to be supported via email and our social media channels, as they have for the last 15 years. That is a commitment we are making.

2. Looking forward to 2018, what excites us most is making the SportTracks product available to as many people as possible, on whatever device they are using, wherever they go, and innovating in ways that are relevant to how athletes are using tech today and in the future. Our vision the past 15 years has remain unchanged - to give technically minded athletes a tool to plan, track and analyze their fitness data while connecting to others in their community. To give people a solution that is highly customizable and technically powerful, isn't "dumbed down", and doesn't drown you in jargony nonsense and clunky user interaction that requires a PhD to understand (side eye to our competitor).

3. With that vision in mind, our 2018 roadmap shows a continued focus on technology that is multi-platform and mobile. In the short term this means our online web platform and native watch and phone app integration. We don't currently have plans for new features or new device support on native desktop-only platforms such as our ST3 software. However when it comes to ST3 we continue to provide fixes for critical data corruption bugs and crashes (as we did today!) It may seem like updates are infrequent because of this - that just shows you how mature and stable the core software is.

If you're a current ST3 user and open to an online+mobile solution you really owe it to yourself to check out the SportTracks online platform. Especially if it's been a few years since you looked at it. Give it the full 45-day free trial and really dig into the features. It's been a few years now that the SportTracks online app has exceeded the ST3 feature capabilities in a large number of places. It's available everywhere. Your data is secure and backed up. And you don't need to fuss with software install and configuration issues on your PC.

If the mobile aspect is a deal breaker, or you check it out and think... meh... and decide to stick with ST3 - that is totally fine. Know that we aren't going anywhere or terminating ST3 licenses. It's your choice which option you want to use.

Thanks again for the feedback.

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Re: ST3

Postby FredericB » Tue Feb 06, 2018 1:51 pm

admin wrote: that just shows you how mature and stable the core software is.


I'm always promoting and putting ST as one of the best activity tracking software. But I don't agree with this statement. When you can't open a logbook because it's too big, I don't call that a mature and stable software :oops: I know this is most of ST user's sword of Damocles and it's doomed to happen to everyone of us at some point, desktop app users.
See :arrow: here

No new features ? no problem. Why not turning ST as an open source software, that way the community can work on it and make it better again :D Upgrading to a more recent version of .NET to handle bigger file, making it x64.... Those would be good first steps.
Last edited by FredericB on Tue Feb 06, 2018 1:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ST3

Postby admin » Tue Feb 06, 2018 1:55 pm

Catching up on the replies...

FredericB wrote:I've been using it for 5 years (I explain in details how I use it and which plugins I use here) and I'm also sad that it is being abandoned more and more every year.

Great review from 2016! We've innovated quite a lot on our SportTracks online platform and actually most (if not all?) of your wish list is completed. There's quite a lot of features we offer that you haven't even mentioned that people find really useful in their training (goal setting, email reports, run power analysis, to name a few off the top of my head) - you should check them out, maybe you'll find some new useful tools.

FredericB wrote:I believe they are trying to move their user to their .mobi platform which I understand as "the cloud" seems to be the trend nowadays. Personally, I want my data offline and not rely on a service that can be down anytime (we've seen it these past days with Movescount! :( ) or that can be hacked.

It's totally your choice if you want an offline solution which is one reason why we continue to support ST3 license holders. That said, the fear of down time and hacking/privacy isn't reflected in what our users are demanding. To the contrary the convenience of access anywhere, automatic data backups, auto-sync to services, integration with watch apps and email and calendar apps, sharing with coaches or partners, and more seems to be a higher priority. Our online product now accounts for basically all of our customer growth, and has for a few years.

FredericB wrote:I have scouted the different options and either GoldenCheetah or MyTourBook seems like viable options that are similar and very well and often maintained (I list the major alternatives here) but haven't made the move yet.

If you're looking for a complete training package, I would say we really only have one competitor - we exceed their solution in many ways, are more flexible, easier to use, and half the cost. They have a much bigger marketing budget. :)

Totally agree on Golden Cheetah. For a purely analysis focused package with a toolkit / math lab sort of feel it's a good option if you're willing to dedicate time to the learning curve and don't mind managing software configurations and backups.
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Re: ST3

Postby admin » Tue Feb 06, 2018 2:06 pm

FredericB wrote:I know this is most of ST user's sword of Damocles and it's doomed to happen to everyone of us at some point, desktop app users.
See :arrow: here

Yup. Fair point. There are definite known limits in how much history you can track in ST3, and it can slow down like a dog on large logbooks. That's not a problem at all in SportTracks online. It's another good reason to upgrade.

We took the lessons we learned in 10 years of development on ST3, how data is stored, what processes and metrics require computation, etc and specifically re-engineered from the start how we store and process data in the SportTracks online product so this wouldn't be a problem. We've got several customers with 5,000+ workout histories and responses are in the single digit second range - consistently. Of course, part of that is because we have a data center working in the background that we can scale, but mostly it's due to our experience in the industry working with fitness sensor data, and working out all the performance bottlenecks on the next-generation software.
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Re: ST3

Postby GaryS » Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:41 pm

Unfortunately, ST3 is not keeping up with the times. Specifically, regarding import of FIT 2.0 files and Garmin CIQ data fields. To me, that's just basic maintenance to ensure that the software stays relevant as technology changes. In my view, significant new features would justify an upgrade (and a charge for current users), but keeping ST3 useful in today's environment should keep the install base satisfied while providing an opportunity for new 'offline' customers.

Plug-ins are useful but not the responsibility of ST3 developers in my opinion. I do however think it has been very unprofessional for OMB to leave users hanging as to whether he will or will not re-open the closed plug-in store. Make a decision, OMB, so we can move on or stay with ST3! If you want out of the business, that's fine, but no need to keep saying the shop is temporarily closed with no other status.
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Re: ST3

Postby dobovedo » Wed Feb 07, 2018 1:26 am

Really bummed to be reading this thread. I have been an ST user for long enough that I really can't remember when I first downloaded it.

No offense to the developers, but I have tried the mobile version on three or four different occasions, and I have been disappointed every time. I will admit that it has been a long time since I last tried it, and I couldn't give a reasonable explanation if you asked me to give feedback today. I suppose I'll have to give it another shot. I guess more than anything, I'm old and cranky. I've got 15 years worth of data to move. I just don't want to go thru the hassle.
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Re: ST3

Postby Yannos » Wed Feb 07, 2018 2:53 am

First of all, I am very glad to see that the Developpers -Thank you very much- will continue to support the off line software, even if I understant that the main developments will be allocated to the mobi plat form ( At 35$ per year, the choice is obvious 8) :lol: :oops: )

On another hand, I totally agree with GaryS regarding OMB's decision. In my opinion it's not only unfair but just unacceptable. When you ask for some payments, even if it is not huge amounts, you have some moral obligation of achievment and follow up. I can understand that OMB is now fed up with all the plugins he created and the job done, but he should find a partner able to take the job over and continue and not stop the way he done.

I also agree with Dobovedo. I think that the mobi application and off line sofware have different objectives. If I am happy to see my exercices history kept for more than 10 years, my main interest is in creating, editing, updating various tracks. Of course, analysing exercices is of interest and I use it too, but, at nearly 63 my objective is not to take daily challenges but to have pleasure and stay in good health. So an accurate analysis of my daily/weekly performances does not interest me.
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Re: ST3

Postby FredericB » Thu Feb 08, 2018 11:43 am

admin wrote:Catching up on the replies...

Great review from 2016! We've innovated quite a lot on our SportTracks online platform and actually most (if not all?) of your wish list is completed. There's quite a lot of features we offer that you haven't even mentioned that people find really useful in their training (goal setting, email reports, run power analysis, to name a few off the top of my head) - you should check them out, maybe you'll find some new useful tools.

Great to know but that's not the point, we're talking here about the desktop app. Again, I'm not looking for a Saas tool but only an on-premise software.

admin wrote:It's totally your choice if you want an offline solution which is one reason why we continue to support ST3 license holders. That said, the fear of down time and hacking/privacy isn't reflected in what our users are demanding. To the contrary the convenience of access anywhere, automatic data backups, auto-sync to services, integration with watch apps and email and calendar apps, sharing with coaches or partners, and more seems to be a higher priority. Our online product now accounts for basically all of our customer growth, and has for a few years.

Yes, it's definitely my choice. I don't need to have access from anywhere at anytime of my training data. I make my own automatic backups, I decide of which version I want to use whereas an online service will always be "up-to-date", I don't need to share my activities with anyone.

admin wrote:If you're looking for a complete training package, I would say we really only have one competitor - we exceed their solution in many ways, are more flexible, easier to use, and half the cost. They have a much bigger marketing budget. :)

I definitely agree, SportTracks has really few competitors, hence the aim of this thread : Is it really utopic to hope for a future of the ST desktop app ? If not, please put it open-source and let the people that are interested in it to make it better. Sure, not everyone is willing to dedicate time to what you call the "learning" curve but don't let us in standing water where ST is left dead and stale.
OR, increase the price to support the funding of an actual development of ST (4?) and that way you can cover 2 types of customers, the one that want to use .mobi and the ones like us that want to continue to enjoy a powerful and unique desktop app.
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Re: ST3

Postby the5krunner » Sat Feb 10, 2018 7:17 am

FredericB wrote:
admin wrote:
I definitely agree, SportTracks has really few competitors, hence the aim of this thread : Is it really utopic to hope for a future of the ST desktop app ? If not, please put it open-source and let the people that are interested in it to make it better. Sure, not everyone is willing to dedicate time to what you call the "learning" curve but don't let us in standing water where ST is left dead and stale.
OR, increase the price to support the funding of an actual development of ST (4?) and that way you can cover 2 types of customers, the one that want to use .mobi and the ones like us that want to continue to enjoy a powerful and unique desktop app.



Or why not even crowd fund a ST4.

Even someone as financially tight as me might stump up $50 to do that.


I just think you have to segment your markets. There are lazy luddites (like probably all of us reading this thread) who just want a desktop solution for teh data we already have in place.
If there are only 30 luddites left then, yes, abandon ST3. but abandon it to public development.
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Re: ST3

Postby askulte » Sat Feb 10, 2018 5:38 pm

I'd buy ST4, or a lifetime license of .mobi.

What's kept me from going to mobi is so many recurring monthly/yearly payments (Strava premium, Zwift, etc...) If I could buy .mobi outright (even feature-locked), I'm in, even it it's more expensive than the annual rental cost. I'm using Golden Cheetah right now for power analysis... It'd be awesome if both teamed up and offered an alternative to Training Peaks / WKO+.
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Re: ST3

Postby RogC » Sat Feb 17, 2018 3:51 pm

admin -
is there any chance at all of an ST4?
I think you still have a hardcore of long term supporters of the desktop versions (for the time being) so if there is any chance you would want to keep it current, now is the time to let us know (and possibly commit to funding it - something I would chip in towards)
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Re: ST3

Postby AlexMTB » Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:45 am

admin wrote:It may seem like updates are infrequent because of this - that just shows you how mature and stable the core software is.


A software with announced failure (problems with the logbook size) and that does not import the data from FIT 2.0 files of devices as important as Garmin is not stable neither mature.
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Re: ST3

Postby alanwestwood » Mon Mar 12, 2018 3:51 am

I date back to ST1, and am a very old user in many ways :)

For me, ST3 is now very dated, and frankly I don't use it anymore. I can easily see why ST.mobi is the new focus, in these days of multiple platforms in which Windows PCs are not the predominant user interface anymore - we all have iOS, Android, or Mac, as well as PC. I do keep abreast of all sports software as I've been a beta tester for several since the very early days of the original Nokia Sports Tracker, and I think that the only good desktop sports software available now is Golden Cheetah and WKO4, both of which require some determination and mathematical ability to make the most of them - though WKO4 in particular is very, very powerful for those that take the trouble to learn its language.

Golden Cheetah and WKO4 are of course both available for Mac or PC - a big advantage these days. RubiTrack for the Mac is also pretty good, though it has no proper forum (there is one, but few use it, at least in part due to the attitude of the developer, who seems to just go his own way in introducing features nobody has asked for and few want). The RubiTrack iOS version has been abandoned, but was anyway very poor. Even so, ST3 on the PC looks positively antique compared to all these alternatives, in my opinion at least. So, desktop software is altogether getting a bit limited, especially for the 'average' user who doesn't want to delve into spreadsheet-type formulas.

But the thing is that I don't use mobi either now, whereas I probably would if there was a good desktop version to accompany it. Thats one of the other good things about WKO4, which of course syncs with TrainingPeaks. Its simply that for me mobi doesn't offer enough over Garmin Connect and/or Strava (personally I use both of these). But I prefer to have my data held locally, so I keep it also on my iPad using RunGap, which is brilliant at syncing and exporting more or less anywhere and so gives me control of my data.

I have only mentioned Garmin Connect, Strava, and TrainingPeaks, but mobi is of course competing with many others - Endomondo, Sports Tracker, Runtastic, RideWithGps, MapMyRide, etc, etc, etc. None of them, except TrainingPeaks, offers an accompanying desktop tool, and I do feel that SportsTracks has missed a trick that could make them stand out from this plethora of alternative websites.
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Re: ST3

Postby admin » Mon Mar 12, 2018 9:51 am

Hey Alan,

Thanks for your past support. And welcome back to the forums. You provide an interesting perspective as a former customer. :)

We've gone a bit off the rails but it's a bit related to the original poster's question and it's Monday so I'll indulge with a wall of text.

TL;DR: If you only need basic features stick with Garmin Connect.

1. The websites Alan lists that popped up circa 2008 and provide basic tracking + phone apps aren't really valid alternatives for the customers we aim to serve: those looking for advanced/customized analysis, planning and tracking and who have a dedicated fitness GPS. Most of these apps are now owned by shoe/apparel companies; their features target the hundreds of millions of wellness type people, not the tech performance athlete niche. You can see this priority in what performance oriented features they've released the last 5 years (HINT: NONE).

2. GPS vendor websites (Garmin, Polar, Suunto, TomTom) today in 2018 are much improved from even five years ago, but they necessarily lack advanced features (similarly aiming for a broad audience) - and they suffer from a fatal flaw - vendor lock in. And lets face it, their development is geared towards selling more watches. So they will sometimes do the minimum to keep the website up. (Remember Suunto's 4 day holiday outage? Or their 2 day outage a few months ago? ) Still for many basic users, these will be "good enough" (see my TL;DR above)

3. Strava is an interesting critter. We strongly recommend the free version for people who want to play the social game. But the premium version is fundamentally lacking, and for triathletes or runners with power there are a few deal breakers that make it a non-starter. Take a look at their customer enhancement list and you'll find requests from four years ago that SportTracks has had for a LONG time. In summary: You get MUCH more advanced features with SportTracks for the same price, and you don't need to abandon the social end (use both!)

4. What does that leave for the performance data nerd - a handful of premium websites (including They Who Shall Not Be Named) - some that do it right, others that look promising but are limited to one sport, or fall flat when you really dig into advanced tracking features. Moreover, the new flock of solutions can be quite expensive, some running to $300 / per year (at $59 we are 1/5th the price). Even our main competitor is DOUBLE our price. No need to list them here - they can do their own marketing. :roll:

5. Regarding native offline apps I think you hit the nail on the head. The market for fitness software is already limited; the market for nerdy tech fit software even much smaller; those that want technical fitness software and don't have online browser access and are limited to a sit-down-at-a-desk-computer is vanishingly small. Couple this tiny niche market with the technical limitations of an offline app that needs to integrate with online device APIs and data services.... the challenge is challenging.

We also strongly believe the exciting innovation coming the next decade won't be happening in your den or office - it's happening on your wrist.

EDIT: As mentioned earlier if you're just reading this. We still make downloads of ST3 available for existing customers!
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Re: ST3

Postby alanwestwood » Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:10 am

Thanks Admin, I read that with great interest, and I take your points.

But I have a cycling racing background, and never have anything on my wrist - I can't even see it under a long sleeve jersey or jacket most of the year in Scotland :wink: And virtually everyone in my cycling club has a bar mounted dedicated gps device, and an HRM, and increasingly a power meter. Some do still use phone apps, but frankly the quality of data they collect is virtually identical to that of the dedicated fitness devices (including their sensor data), so long as the phone is mounted and not in a pocket (I've done a pile of comparisons as a long time beta tester for Wahoo and others).

I do agree that most people these days expect to be able to see and share their data on a website, and the one they use depends on their personal tastes - towards social interaction, health and fitness monitoring, routing and touring, comparison with peers, training and racing, perhaps with goal setting and detailed fitness analysis, etc. Obviously you've carefully considered where the future of SportTracks lies in all this, and I can't argue with your conclusions at all - from the perspective of a user though, we have plenty of choice with regard to websites, but very little for desktop training logs, and from what you say we can expect that to decrease even further.
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Re: ST3

Postby texmurphy » Mon Mar 12, 2018 12:46 pm

ST3 showed the power of plugins. When you look at the plugin environment under Chrome for Strava, some interesting things are happening.
Example below is from StravistiX for Strava.
What is missing from Golden Cheetah and others which ST3 has is the gear&kit integration. Very important for those of us who track usage for replacement and repair.

FitTrendStravistiX.jpg
StravistiX for Strava
FitTrendStravistiX.jpg (209.8 KiB) Viewed 3320 times
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Re: ST3

Postby admin » Mon Mar 12, 2018 1:36 pm

Yep. Chrome plugins can be fun. Why not? :D

We also offer a full read/write data API that many people have used to make useful tools, and we don't have the onerous data and usage restrictions that Strava does.

SportTracks has had training load modeling for four years I believe - it was definitely one of the early features. I'm really surprised Strava doesn't offer training load? Seems like such a basic feature in 2018. It further shows how their focus is really on the social/competitive segment aspect, rather than performance metrics.

Of course we offer training load integrated into your planning calendar, estimation for planned workouts, you can even set effort goals and track to completion with email updates, see your training load next to your workout volume load or health metrics in the same view, estimate future training load coming up to a race, show historical race prep training load, to name a few things off the top of my head.

Why have a suffer score if you're not going to offer a training load model? :oops:
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Re: ST3

Postby Liquidmantis » Mon May 14, 2018 10:46 am

My experience with Training Load on SportTracks.mobi is that it's slow to load, and a lot of times has a timeout error. Strava does have Fitness and Freshness as a Premium feature.

I'm another longtime ST user, and just don't get on well with ST.mobi Typical of web apps, things take too many clicks and navigation is significantly slower than a dedicated desktop application. Now that my Fenix and Edge auto-upload, I use ST.mobi solely as an easy way to pull my cloud data to ST desktop, which I have to maintain a Windows VM to run it now that I've switched to Mac for my primary OS. I use ST for detailed equipment tracking and reporting on specific trail performance (mountain biker), on ST.mobi the former has a poor UX and the latter isn't possible.

I'd gladly throw down money for ST4, even more if it was finally cross-platform.
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Re: ST3

Postby pucko » Fri May 25, 2018 4:51 pm

it is sad reading when it comes to your plans for ST3.
I have been a paying customer for the .mobi version 5 years now.
The only thing I have used it for is for syncing my data from st3 so I have a backup outside my home if something happens.
It is up for renewal in july, but I will leave the platform. If there was plans for a ST4, i would have payed for it. Also I would have
stayed as a customer for the mobi version eaven thoug I only use it as "backup ". It is not close to the ST3 with all the available plugins.
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Re: ST3

Postby admin » Tue May 29, 2018 2:34 pm

pucko wrote:It is not close to the ST3 with all the available plugins.


I wonder what you miss, since the online SportTracks plaform has far exceeded most of the features in ST3 for years, including the most popular plugins integrated into the system, and many things never possible in ST3.
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Re: ST3

Postby pucko » Tue May 29, 2018 4:47 pm

admin wrote:
pucko wrote:It is not close to the ST3 with all the available plugins.


I wonder what you miss, since the online SportTracks plaform has far exceeded most of the features in ST3 for years, including the most popular plugins integrated into the system, and many things never possible in ST3.


Live recording, garmin fittnes, offline possibility is just a few things that i use at a daily to weekly basis.

I can't find anything in the online version that I have use for and can't do in the online version.
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