Training Analysis

by old_man_biking

Downloads: 2,939 (12) • Reviews: 3

Version:

3.0.5857

Updated:

Jan 14, 2016

TSS

Re: TSS

Postby curly » Tue Mar 29, 2011 2:49 am

old_man_biking wrote:
curly wrote:
old_man_biking wrote:Correct - FTP should be entered by the user, like max heart rate or other athlete specific data.

The utmost: a plugin that can calculate estimates for FTP (e.g. Critical Power 60) can offer the user to enter it for him - as a convenience.

Cheers,
OMB

Glad you are here OMB, what do you think caused this?


The duration of 2:19 is moving time, i.e. has undergone some filtering in ST.
I cannot see the total time of this activity from your data and screen shots.

Could you please upload an exported FITLOG file of your activity.
Racerfern had similar issues in the past that might be related to a huge discrepancy of total time vs. moving time as well.

Cheers,
OMB

PS: When writing this post I clicked the wrong button first, EDITED your post and DELETED your uploaded image.
Sorry for that :oops: :oops: Maybe you could attach it to your post again.

There will indeed be a big difference in moving and actual time, I power down the unit under these circumstances and WKO seems to get the TSS about right.

The fitlog export file was rejected for upload as being too large
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Re: TSS

Postby old_man_biking » Tue Mar 29, 2011 4:51 am

Please upload an exported FITLOG file of your activity.
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Re: TSS

Postby racerfern » Tue Mar 29, 2011 7:23 am

@Curly: I too would like to see the file so we can get to the bottom of it. Please upload the activity file and we'll try to figure this out.

I also didn't read what you have your FTP set at. If you could tell us that would help.

Thanks,
Fernando
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Re: TSS

Postby curly » Tue Mar 29, 2011 7:45 am

This is what I get when I try to upload the Fitlog
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Re: TSS

Postby curly » Tue Mar 29, 2011 8:00 am

Contrary to raceferns findings the calculation method used by WKO+ seems work with pauses/breaks in my 705 files.
Todays workout went completelly mad in st3 Daily activity normalised power 601, TSS 1493, riding time 99:14 mins
Training load, IF 3.44. NP 688, TSS 3175
Whereas WKO+ is also calculating from the same file and gives this:
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Re: TSS

Postby old_man_biking » Tue Mar 29, 2011 8:53 am

I'm sure you will find a way to post this file.
Either try zipping (and compressing) it before upload.
Or use another file upload service in the net. There are literally 1000s of them.

Cheers,
OMB
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Re: TSS

Postby curly » Tue Mar 29, 2011 9:51 am

Please forgive my computer incompetence :oops: Zipping hadn't occured to me.
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Re: TSS

Postby mechgt » Tue Mar 29, 2011 6:34 pm

I'm guessing your FTP is set to 200 watts (NP/IF = 200 watts from earlier numbers). When I set my FTP to 200 and import your activity and view in Training Load, I get the results shown below:

2011-03-29_1931.png
2011-03-29_1931.png (7.64 KiB) Viewed 22596 times


...and you said this is different from what you saw?
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Re: TSS

Postby racerfern » Tue Mar 29, 2011 11:23 pm

I get this...

Image

I also tried exporting the fitlog as a tcx and importing into WKO but that didn't work very well.
I wonder why each users' view of the data varies as much as it does.
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Re: TSS

Postby curly » Wed Mar 30, 2011 3:55 am

I will watch this space with interest, now that better minds than my own are on the case. I am sure you will get to the bottom of it, if I can help by uploading any more erroneous data that I get or giving any further information please just ask.
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Re: TSS

Postby mechgt » Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:14 am

The difference between mine and racerfern's analysis is the inclusion/exclusion of stopped/paused time. Believe that mine were both unchecked in the Settings > Analysis page.
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Re: TSS

Postby curly » Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:49 am

I will try with both un checked. If you get a chance tell me what you make of this one :?
I am a little disappointed as this sort of thing casts into doubt all my analysis in ST3
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Re: TSS

Postby old_man_biking » Wed Mar 30, 2011 7:15 am

Yes, it's the presence of non-moving times that causes the difference.
I've checked curly's FITLOG file: it contains a long pause.

My current version of Training Analysis Plugin considers non moving times for TSS.
If I remember right I changed it to this behaviour a while ago after racerfern (?) had found discrepancies to WKO+ or whatever.
The current calculation is kind of nonsense, because paused times don't increase your training stress - at most your blood alcohol level.

I've tried to implement this: http://lists.topica.com/lists/wattage/r ... =907028398
What's not mentioned in this algorithm: shall non-moving times be discarded.

So here's the next discussion of what is right and what is wrong :P
Who else in the ST plugin landscape is calculating NP/IF/TSS? Mechgt?
And what's the "gold standard" for comparison: WKO+?
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Re: TSS

Postby racerfern » Wed Mar 30, 2011 10:57 am

@Curly:
If you could upload the TCX files AND the SRM files, I think that would help in getting this figured out.

I use an iBike for power and I keep a logbook with just imported iBike files. That way I don't have to deal with pauses and cafe stops. My data matches to WKO and I hardly use WKO any longer. As I suggested previously, look to TrainingLoad for calculations such as TSS/CTL/ATL/TSB/IF and look to Training Analysis to drill into things such as CPXX.

I also keep another logbook for the files with GPS data. When importing TCX files I never use them for analysis, just for look see fun.

@OMB
I think WKO is the standard. There are a lot of annoying things about WKO that make ST much better, however, the basic TSS/CTL/ATL/TSB calculations of WKO are spot on. If something goes wrong with an activity in WKO, you need to look at the activity data.

Pauses and stops are haunting Training Analysis and they also haunt TCX files in WKO. It's not just your issue. Many WKO users "cut" the stops out of TCX files either prior to importing or within WKO. It's a pain.
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Re: TSS

Postby curly » Wed Mar 30, 2011 11:17 am

@racefern, sadly I don't posses an SRM head unit so I can't help with that data unfortunately.
As I get more into training with power I a beginning to realise that I will need to buy one at some stage.
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Re: TSS

Postby racerfern » Wed Mar 30, 2011 12:19 pm

curly wrote:@racefern, sadly I don't posses an SRM head unit so I can't help with that data unfortunately.
As I get more into training with power I a beginning to realise that I will need to buy one at some stage.


No worries, if you can upload the tcx file for the ride we've been discussing I think that will help. FYI, the reason I shy away from the TCX file for analysis purposes is that you can have issues both with filtering and data drops in addition to issues with stops and pauses. For someone serious about training by power, that can be a deal breaker.
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Re: TSS

Postby curly » Wed Mar 30, 2011 12:58 pm

@racefern.Hopefully this is the one.
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Re: TSS

Postby curly » Thu Mar 31, 2011 9:53 am

@racefern, can you please advise me regarding the recommended 705 settings for accurate data recording, I recently changed to every second recording, anything else I should be mindfull of?
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Re: TSS

Postby racerfern » Thu Mar 31, 2011 11:31 am

I use one second recording for nearly all activities. For long club rides,etc., I switch to smart recording because I'm not going to drill down into interval data, I'm more interested in the big picture and no sense in having a huge data file that will never get utilized.

I have my auto stop set to 2.5mph and I never hit the stop button. I also keep zero averaging off. That means zeros are not calculated into cadence and power totals. Hence your power average on the 705 really comes out more like Normalized Power after a long ride.

Post up a couple of other rides and we'll see how the data looks. FYI in ST go to settings > analysis (IIRC) and I have the top box "Include stopped time in totals" unchecked. I have the bottom box, "Include Pauses..." or whatever it says checked. Finally, when importing a TCX file I always switch from the Automatic Calculation to Manual Calculation, IOW switch from the little calculator to the pencil. That's the way I do things and you'll find each user here has their own favorite method.

Others do not use pauses, they keep the watch running when they stop, etc. Find what works for you and stick with it, that's probably the best advice I can give.
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Re: TSS

Postby curly » Thu Mar 31, 2011 1:34 pm

@racefern, that's just what I wanted, many thanks. I will check out the configuration tomorrow and post a couple of rides, I have a 10m TT on Saturday I will send that one first.
Thanks again for your help.
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Re: TSS

Postby curly » Sat Apr 02, 2011 5:21 pm

TT data as promised. No pauses and all seems to match between WKO and ST3
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