Training Load

by mechgt

Downloads: 12,931 (48) • Reviews: 18

Version:

2.0.7

Updated:

Aug 26, 2015

Cadence cutoff request

Cadence cutoff request

Postby PissedOffCil » Mon Jun 21, 2010 10:09 am

I'm trying this out recently, not sure how valid it is but I'd like to try it out. Here is my basis for this request :
I currently use the plugin and exclude stopped times from the results as to not bias when I ride with slower riders. I believe the same applies when a cyclist is coasting or going downhill, he shouldn't produce any TRIMP points during these sections.

I looked at some of my data and on MTB rides, I can often reach up to 30% of coasting/downhill time. My outdoor rides produce lots of TRIMP points although they feel easier than indoors trainings. To make my TRIMP points reflect the perceived exersion better, I think a cadence cutoff would be required to exclude coasting portions out of the score.

Anybody agree? mechgt, what do you think? Would it be hard to add?
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Postby racerfern » Mon Jun 21, 2010 5:12 pm

I think indoor rides are inordinately harder to complete. But there's no rewarding an exercise with additional TRIMP or TSS.

I would think that coasting down a technical downhill certainly calls for HR above resting so TRIMP is accumulated, although neglibile. And that would be reflected in the lower HR than when pushing hard.
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Postby mechgt » Mon Jun 21, 2010 10:01 pm

My opinion: If you're not doing any work, then your HR will be low and therefore you won't be collecting any Trimp 'points'. I tend to think that the current implementation provides the best results.

In addition, HR lags effort somewhat (by around 30 seconds I think?) so to neglect the HR track when cadence < cutoff may not align with the times you're really interested in anyhow.
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Postby PissedOffCil » Tue Jun 22, 2010 6:10 am

Yes the HR is lower but I don't have a HR zone with 0 weight so I'm always gaining points as long as I move. Maybe I should set my HR Zone 1 at 0 weight, yet again when riding technical DHs my HR stay's fairly high (HR Z3 or so) but I'm not really working muscularly. This is why I thought of this cadence cutoff idea.
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Postby mechgt » Tue Jun 22, 2010 6:35 am

Hmm... The default zone factors will set the lowest zone to 0 if the avg hr for that zone is low enough... if the default calculation would set zone factor for less than 0.2 then TL bumps it to 0. This should apply to your lowest HR zone. If you're using too few zones, or set it all up manually yourself then this may not be the case.

Anyway, 0.2 was an arbitrary number I chose myself because it tended to get the lowest zone to 0, but not affect any more zones, and it addressed the exact problem you describe. Lowest zone to 0 sounds like a good fix for your problem.
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Postby PissedOffCil » Tue Jun 22, 2010 11:03 am

My lowest HR zone has a value of 0.9 which is fine when I'm resting or warming up, not when I'm coasting... This wouldn't be such a big deal if it's a matter of seconds that I'm not pedaling, but when you go downhill for 1-2 minutes right after a climb, your HR stays high enough for long enough that in the end it counts. And this never occurs when indoors on the trainer where I get 100% active pedaling time.

My big goal with this is to have my indoors training "perceived exertion" match the outdoors better, since there is such a big difference in feel between the two for many reasons other than coasting, I agree!

mechgt wrote:Hmm... The default zone factors will set the lowest zone to 0 if the avg hr for that zone is low enough... if the default calculation would set zone factor for less than 0.2 then TL bumps it to 0. This should apply to your lowest HR zone. If you're using too few zones, or set it all up manually yourself then this may not be the case.

Anyway, 0.2 was an arbitrary number I chose myself because it tended to get the lowest zone to 0, but not affect any more zones, and it addressed the exact problem you describe. Lowest zone to 0 sounds like a good fix for your problem.
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Postby Stumpjumper68 » Tue Jun 22, 2010 4:17 pm

Riding a downhill is not only pedaling, your hole body is still working and this keeps the HR high. Trimp is build to count HR points, doesn't matter what you're doing, having sex on the bike witout pedaling could count as well :lol: just endurance
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Postby mechgt » Tue Jun 22, 2010 9:53 pm

Stumpjumper68 wrote:... doesn't matter what you're doing, having sex on the bike witout pedaling...
No no, why would you stop pedaling?!?! :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Postby PissedOffCil » Wed Jun 23, 2010 11:02 am

I realize this but even if you stand still after a climb you're HR is still high, yet I take out these portions (using the stopped speed of the category) because I'm not active.

Maybe I should just have different weights for indoors vs outdoors training...

And, if we're talking on the road, a DH isn't worth any effort if you ask me. MTB is another matter depending on the trail.
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Postby Stumpjumper68 » Wed Jun 23, 2010 3:51 pm

If your heart muscle is working, whatever action you make it counts even you do not act.
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Postby mechgt » Wed Jun 23, 2010 5:50 pm

I wouldn't take those sections out first off. Just my opinion. Think of it on the other side... when you first start up that hill, does you HR immediately spike or is there a few seconds lag before HR catches up? I think we're wandering into speculation land for filtering the Trimp data.

I would want to see some actual research that says there's a better model (like some portions of an activity should be omitted for instance) than what's currently implemented to track performance before making changes like that to TL. My goal is to provide the most accurate and widely respected data I can, so I try to implement it as close as possible to what the studies have found.
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Postby PissedOffCil » Tue Jun 29, 2010 8:15 am

An idea I had this morning. When measuring training load using a power meter (without a doubt the most accurate measuring available, right?), you don't get any watts for these sections of coasting/downhill. Doesn't this fit with what I'm trying to achieve with a cadence cutoff?
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Postby mechgt » Tue Jun 29, 2010 8:42 am

Not quite. It's a completely different algorithm. TSS and Trimp scores are calculated completely different (one is cumulative and the other is an average type of calc) and the input data (HR & power) behave completely different. Power has an instantaneous response, HR lags effort.

Anyway, power does go to 0 sometimes, but those moments are in fact included in the calculation/score since TSS calcs are based on an averaging type calculation ('Normalized Power' is a modified averaging calculation). So all of the 0 watts moments in an activity bring your NP or avg. power down... thus they are included in the calculation.

NOTE: TSS is based on Norm. Power, but I use the term 'avg. power' above for simplicity and clarity.
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Postby PissedOffCil » Wed Jun 30, 2010 8:05 am

Interesting, I thought the load was measured by simply cumulating the watts produced.

P.S. I don't have a power meter.

mechgt wrote:Not quite. It's a completely different algorithm. TSS and Trimp scores are calculated completely different (one is cumulative and the other is an average type of calc) and the input data (HR & power) behave completely different. Power has an instantaneous response, HR lags effort.

Anyway, power does go to 0 sometimes, but those moments are in fact included in the calculation/score since TSS calcs are based on an averaging type calculation ('Normalized Power' is a modified averaging calculation). So all of the 0 watts moments in an activity bring your NP or avg. power down... thus they are included in the calculation.

NOTE: TSS is based on Norm. Power, but I use the term 'avg. power' above for simplicity and clarity.
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