Training Load

by mechgt

Downloads: 12,931 (48) • Reviews: 18

Version:

2.0.7

Updated:

Aug 26, 2015

Different HRMAX for running cycling

Different HRMAX for running cycling

Postby marky_gee » Thu Jan 05, 2012 6:19 pm

I've seen in other posts that we accept that cycling and running often have different LT thresholds.
TL seems to be using HRMax as a proxy for LT ... fair enough.

I appreciate that I can enter different HR zones in ST3 for cycling and running AND that TL can use them.

BUT

Is there a way of getting TL to look at differrent HRMaxs to accomodate this?

A workaround would MAYBE be that if my HRworkingMAX for running was 190 and 180 for cycling then I just get my cycling zones in ST to hit to infinity 10 beats earlier .Something like that???

sorry if i'm not explaining this well/

thanks
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Re: Different HRMAX for running cycling

Postby marky_gee » Wed Mar 21, 2012 11:22 am

Any comments on this please?

My lactate threshold tests indicate that my bike threshold is currently 10 beats lower or so.

i have changed my cycling zones accordingly and the resulting TRIMPs do increase from previous figures

ie my cycling zones hit the infinity band 10 beats lower than running.

is this the right thing to do or am i just kidding myself that my cycling sessions are harder than i think?
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Re: Different HRMAX for running cycling

Postby NotYoMama » Wed Apr 18, 2012 10:46 am

it makes sense to me. Most people have a different HR range for running than for cycling. I can get my HR much higher running than I can for cycling at the same RPE. Add to that the variability of HR due to "other" factors (rest, temperature, etc.) and I think this is partly why most folks try to use power for cycling vs. HR.

However, for those of us not fortunate enough to own power meters, it would be nice if the plug-in would consider running HR zones for running TRIMP calcs and cycling HR zones for cycling TRIMP calcs.

As best I can tell, right now it just takes HRmax - HRrest as the range, and then figures where in that range your HRavg for a given workout falls. The issue with that is that it shows TRIMP scores for running activities much higher than for cycling activities. So really HARD cycling workouts score at or below "normal" run workouts.

At the same time, I'll admit to not being an exercise physiology guru. and so maybe that's correct. Maybe you get a better training result from hard runs than you do from equally hard bike rides. So event specificity aside, these metrics imply that you should spend your time with your HR as high as possible, the best way of doing that apparently by running.

I don't know if any of this makes sense, but I'd love some feedback from anyone further down this trail than me.
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Re: Different HRMAX for running cycling

Postby Burnt Toast » Wed Apr 18, 2012 11:47 am

NotYoMama wrote:it makes sense to me. Most people have a different HR range for running than for cycling. I can get my HR much higher running than I can for cycling at the same RPE. Add to that the variability of HR due to "other" factors (rest, temperature, etc.) and I think this is partly why most folks try to use power for cycling vs. HR.

However, for those of us not fortunate enough to own power meters, it would be nice if the plug-in would consider running HR zones for running TRIMP calcs and cycling HR zones for cycling TRIMP calcs.

As best I can tell, right now it just takes HRmax - HRrest as the range, and then figures where in that range your HRavg for a given workout falls. The issue with that is that it shows TRIMP scores for running activities much higher than for cycling activities. So really HARD cycling workouts score at or below "normal" run workouts.

At the same time, I'll admit to not being an exercise physiology guru. and so maybe that's correct. Maybe you get a better training result from hard runs than you do from equally hard bike rides. So event specificity aside, these metrics imply that you should spend your time with your HR as high as possible, the best way of doing that apparently by running.

I don't know if any of this makes sense, but I'd love some feedback from anyone further down this trail than me.


TL can use each activities HR ranges or a single activity for all workouts to calculate TRIMPS from its settings page.
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Re: Different HRMAX for running cycling

Postby marky_gee » Thu Apr 19, 2012 7:49 am

yes it can use different zones per activity

BUT (and here is why i was asking the question) the calcs use HRmax and that is fixed absolutely. (or do they?)

LTHR varies by activity and is changeable over time more so that HRmax (which might ''rise'' as you initially get better at measuring it and then fall slightly as you get fitter, apparently) but failry statis either way. so if you set your zones based loosely on LTHR per activity is it skewed by having a fixed HRmax

or am i missing something or not explaining myself?
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Re: Different HRMAX for running cycling

Postby mechgt » Thu Apr 19, 2012 8:59 am

You can 'optionally' use HR max (it is the default option I believe). If you like however, you can setup factors for each HR zone differently. To do this, in TL settings, uncheck 'Single Zone' and 'Dynamic Zone Factors'. The you can define factors for Running and Cycling separately (maybe your cycling factors are more aggressive for example).

The trade-off here is that TL prefers many small zones in order to get better calculations, but you may not necessarily want to modify your category HR zones.
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Re: Different HRMAX for running cycling swimming

Postby marky_gee » Sat Apr 21, 2012 3:29 am

thanks mech

just to be clear about this
1. there is a global ST3 HR max setting which can be set each day. You don't have to change this.
2. "In TL settings, uncheck 'Single Zone' and 'Dynamic Zone Factors'. " and then this makes TL solely use the settings for each sport and ignore the global HR Max

if so, that's great.

I take your point about TL's need for more zones than (the likes of) Friel's LTHR-based zones require. I've thought about this for a while and can't think of a comprehensive workaround.

I guess you could split friel's zones in half but that would still cause usage issues with the zones during exercise and general analysis outside of TL.

Or maybe create zones by sport but don't use them normally. only use them at critical periods - like when tapering/approaching taper/peak.

other suggestion: Could you build in some fudge factor by sport? eg you use your one standard hrmax based zone as normal but instead of setting zones per sport you build in a subtly different calculation based on a user input of "how much this sport's LTHR varies from the hrmax based lthr from the standard zone eg swimming is -12 and my cycling is -8) something like that?

other suggestion: allow special TL zones to be created that can be associated with a sport BUT ONLY used in TL eg you have a RUNNING and CYCLING set of zones BUT ALSO a RUNNING-TL and CYCLING-TL set of more detailed zones

I think, unfortunately, that this is an issue that people will keep coming back to. Hopefully some clever person out there can think of a way.

--------

And then the other problem is that LTHR will change (increase) over a matter of weeks through training. Which is exactly what the training is intending to achieve in endurance sports! so it will have to vary by time as well!!! (oh dear)

And also, as with HRmax, there is the question of getting LTHR correct in the first place
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Re: Different HRMAX for running cycling

Postby mechgt » Wed Apr 25, 2012 5:36 am

marky_gee wrote:just to be clear about this
1. there is a global ST3 HR max setting which can be set each day. You don't have to change this.
2. "In TL settings, uncheck 'Single Zone' and 'Dynamic Zone Factors'. " and then this makes TL solely use the settings for each sport and ignore the global HR Max


Yes, TL will ignore HR max and use the separate settings you specified for each sport.

At the moment, I don't have a better way to apply different factors to different sports.
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