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Tanita support?

PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 11:09 am
by jshowalter
How do I use your training-analysis plugin to incorporate Tanita BC-1000 scale data into ST? I have a Garmin Forerunner 610 that uploads data from the scale, and now I want to import the data from the 610 into ST. You mention it in viewtopic.php?f=3&t=10438&p=60291&hilit=tanita#p60291, but there are no details.

Re: Tanita support?

PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 11:36 am
by old_man_biking

Re: Tanita support?

PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 1:07 pm
by jshowalter
Where does the weight.fit file wind up when downloading from a 610 to a PC?

Re: Tanita support?

PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2011 2:12 am
by 7in1
old_man_biking also curious to know where .tcx of tanita scale is to be found ?

Re: Tanita support?

PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2011 8:52 am
by kring
I understand it that the "data" goes strait from the device to Garmin Connect or it is imported into ST3's database. I don't believe the files are saved as raw .fit or .tcx files on your PC.

Re: Tanita support?

PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2011 9:52 am
by old_man_biking
It's not a TCX but a FIT file.
And it's cached by the Garmin ANT Agent.
Please search this forum or the web in general for the Garmin ANT Agent cache folder path.
E.g. here: https://forums.garmin.com/showthread.php?p=5999
The weight.FIT file can be found in a "Weight" subfolder of the device folder.

Cheers,
OMB

Re: Tanita support?

PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2011 11:17 am
by jshowalter
It works! [Update: What I meant by this was that I could find the directory with the file in it.]

Re: Tanita support?

PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 6:33 pm
by jshowalter
I do not understand these instructions:

"Weigth Scale support (Tanita):
Action "Import Weight Scale Data from FIT File" in the Athlete view."

When I go to the Athlete view, I don't see an Action dropdown or menu.

Can you please explain exactly where this import option is located?

Re: Tanita support?

PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 6:47 pm
by jshowalter
Okay, I finally found it. I had to read your release notes to find this:

* NEW: Athlete view edit action "Import Weight Scale Data from FIT File"
to import weight scale data (originating from a Tanita scale) from a Garmin device

That clued me into the action being on the Edit menu.

Now I navigate to the weight directory, select the .fit file, and get the error shown in the screenshot.

There is no history directory as described in this link:

"Please search this forum or the web in general for the Garmin ANT Agent cache folder path.
E.g. here: https://forums.garmin.com/showthread.php?p=5999
The weight.FIT file can be found in a "Weight" subfolder of the device folder."

And there is no file called weight.FIT. But the file that is in the weight directory has the correct timestamp for my last sync via the ANT agent.

Re: Tanita support?

PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 11:11 pm
by old_man_biking
To make it short: you get this error, right?
Please attach the FIT file to your post. If you don't want to disclose it publicly, send it to me via E-Mail.

Cheers,
OMB

Re: Tanita support?

PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 2:22 am
by jshowalter
The weird thing is, the second time I went through this process, it worked.

Re: Tanita support?

PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 10:39 am
by old_man_biking
Well, I've just attended a "Vodoo for software supporters" training. It seems to pay off :lol: :lol:

Re: Tanita support?

PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 9:41 am
by Hellwig
Hi OMB,
does the Weight Scale plug in works with SMARTLAB fit+ Personenwaage m.Uebertrag.Set. This Scale works with ant+ like the bc-1000.

Thanks for your answer.

Regards

Stephanie

Re: Tanita support?

PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 11:12 am
by old_man_biking
Hellwig wrote:Hi OMB,
does the Weight Scale plug in works with SMARTLAB fit+ Personenwaage m.Uebertrag.Set. This Scale works with ant+ like the bc-1000.

Thanks for your answer.

Regards

Stephanie


It should - the SMARTLAB fit+ claims to be ANT+ compliant.
However I can't guarantee that HMM has done a perfect job.

OMB

Re: Tanita support?

PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 7:07 pm
by schmenge
I have a Tanita BC-1000. I have searched my HD and there are no *.FIT files. It appears to me that the file format is a *.sdf file so I assume I am not compatiable with the new plugin?

Re: Tanita support?

PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 12:31 am
by old_man_biking
You can either:
- let a Garmin Edge500/800, ForeRunner, ... pick up the Tanita's data --> FIT files on the Garmin
- or let the plugin directly talk to your scale - using an ANT USB stick

Where do these SDF files come from?
Could you attach one to your post?

Cheers,
OMB

Re: Tanita support?

PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 6:13 am
by schmenge
My Garmin is a 405 and does not communicate with the Tanita at all. I do use ANT for the tanita connection to the PC. The .sdf comes from the Tanita. File attached
Healthy Edge Db.zip
(23.66 KiB) Downloaded 413 times


old_man_biking wrote:You can either:
- let a Garmin Edge500/800, ForeRunner, ... pick up the Tanita's data --> FIT files on the Garmin
- or let the plugin directly talk to your scale - using an ANT USB stick

Where do these SDF files come from?
Could you attach one to your post?

Cheers,
OMB

Re: Tanita support?

PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 10:23 am
by old_man_biking
I see.
ST + my plugin can replace Healthy Edge (or GMon which replaces HealthyEdge in Germany),
because they talk to the Tanita using the ANT USB stick as well.

Re: Tanita support?

PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 10:24 am
by kring
OBM, so far so good, I've done a handful of direct imports from the BC-1000 without issue. One minor feature request. there are some additional calculations that are performed by either the Garmin Connect site or the Competitive Edge Healthy edge application... they are as follows.

Body Fat % = Body fat [lb] / Weight
Fat free mass = Weight - Body fat [lb]
Daily Caloric Intake = BMR * 2.1 ( I believe this is for a lifetime athlete option selected, may be a lower rate for others)

Also, a question, are you getting the BMR direct from the scale as a number or are you calculating that formula?

Re: Tanita support?

PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 10:35 am
by old_man_biking
kring wrote:OBM, so far so good, I've done a handful of direct imports from the BC-1000 without issue. One minor feature request. there are some additional calculations that are performed by either the Garmin Connect site or the Competitive Edge Healthy edge application... they are as follows.

Body Fat % = Body fat [lb] / Weight
Fat free mass = Weight - Body fat [lb]
Daily Caloric Intake = BMR * 2.1 ( I believe this is for a lifetime athlete option selected, may be a lower rate for others)

Also, a question, are you getting the BMR direct from the scale as a number or are you calculating that formula?

Body Fat% is calculated - it's a standard field of ST.
Fat free mass: I could add this - not a major issue.

BMR is estimated by the plugin - see the tool tip for the BMR value.
The Tanita estimates it as well.
I found the Tanita to provide strange values for AMR. Must have a 2nd and 3rd look.
DCI as 2.1*BMR isn't very valuable in my opinion.
I generally don't put high esteem on these purely estimated values. They look as if they are a valuable input for you, but in fact they are just rough guesses.

Cheers,
OMB

Re: Tanita support?

PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 11:08 am
by kring
Totally missed that on the ST3 default tab, I was on the custom data page..

I just gave Tanita a call... Their BMR number is proprietary & confidential. All they could tell me is that they have a more advanced/scientific calculation than the standard methods found on the web... She mentioned impedance is included in the calculation, I noticed that their numbers are 100-300 higher than standard methods.

Would it be possible to have an option that lets you select if you want the Tanita calculation from the scale or the your more industry standard calculation?

I agree the DCI is not a big deal. just something I noticed that was already calculated @ Garmin & Healthy Edge software.

Re: Tanita support?

PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 12:00 pm
by old_man_biking
Tanita transmits BMR in a proprietary data packet that I wasn't able to reengineer.

Well, I would rate their "very scientific BMR calculation" as kind of marketing blah blah.
There are some rules of thumb (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basal_metabolic_rate ) and I decided to adopt the one that I thought is quite reasonable, because it is based on fat free mass.

I honestly disbelieve numbers like these. Polar had (and still has?) a number called OwnIndex that they claim to be "equivalent to the maximal aerobic power, VO2max",
a number that is usually determined in elaborate spiro ergometric tests.
I've met people who claimed that this number meets their VO2max VERY EXACTLY - they nearly got angry when I slightly doubted this.
The truth is: this number is highly biased by some parameters that you type into your Polar watch (fitness level, age, ...).
And you can easily increase your "VO2max" by 50% with just a few lies, when you type in these parameters :lol: :lol:

Bottom line: I prefer not to believe any numbers that a sub $200 device displays without giving evidence how it measures/calculates these.

Re: Tanita support?

PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 4:57 pm
by schmenge
old_man_biking wrote:I see.
ST + my plugin can replace Healthy Edge (or GMon which replaces HealthyEdge in Germany),
because they talk to the Tanita using the ANT USB stick as well.


Great! I missed that but see the option now

Re: Tanita support?

PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 2:55 am
by Tisztul_A_Visztula
old_man_biking wrote:Tanita transmits BMR in a proprietary data packet that I wasn't able to reengineer.

Well, I would rate their "very scientific BMR calculation" as kind of marketing blah blah.
There are some rules of thumb (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basal_metabolic_rate ) and I decided to adopt the one that I thought is quite reasonable, because it is based on fat free mass.

I honestly disbelieve numbers like these. Polar had (and still has?) a number called OwnIndex that they claim to be "equivalent to the maximal aerobic power, VO2max",
a number that is usually determined in elaborate spiro ergometric tests.
I've met people who claimed that this number meets their VO2max VERY EXACTLY - they nearly got angry when I slightly doubted this.
The truth is: this number is highly biased by some parameters that you type into your Polar watch (fitness level, age, ...).
And you can easily increase your "VO2max" by 50% with just a few lies, when you type in these parameters :lol: :lol:

Bottom line: I prefer not to believe any numbers that a sub $200 device displays without giving evidence how it measures/calculates these.


This is also my feeling as described in my PM sent to you (I made a mistake not to choose a fair Subject name, so maybe this is why it may have gone to the dustbin :-) )

I have experiences with Tanita BC-543, a relative basic version of the series sold as Ironman in US, but as a Tanita Innerscan in EU. Actually there is no BC-543 in US sold, but it seems to me that if Tanita calculates BMR it is Ironman, but if it does the DCI then it is Tanita.

My first feeling that the weight scale is reliable, but the other readings which all can be derived from the body water reading are just humbug.
On a day my metabolic age was 26-27 with a fat of 16.6%, the next day i was between 36-38 and the fat was 19.9-20.3%.

No change in food taken, neither in the setting, just weight increased by 0.2-0.3 kg.

Finally changed the setting from male to athletic male, since my resting HR is very close to 60, and i train just a bit less than 10 hours per week and i became 19 years old in metabolic terms with a fat of 14%.

So I still wonder is there any trick to minimise the volatility?

I guess everything except the weight comes from the hydration level of the body, which have two sources: the proportion of muscles and the normal daily cycle of the hydration level. But since one cannot maintain a day at exactly the same level of hydration Tanita deems that you have developed or demolished some muscles. If the total body water level is a sh*t, then all the other readings except body weight will be distorted including body fat.
Of course you can measure yourself at the same time everyday this is what I tried and I had avoided any training just to be sure that the hydration cycle was not biased, but I got the results as described above.
Anyway when I got my BMR age of 26, it was good to provoke my wife. :lol:

So what do you think? Am I right when conluding it?

My bottom line is since Tanita uses the same BIA method in case of all its products it is better to buy a BC-543 for GBP60 (or 100USD) like I did to have some experimental fun than another one eg, one with the 'segmental measures' feature for 350 USD like BC-558 or 568 to dream about developing a scientific lab at home. I guess I boight an expensive but reliable weight scale which advises me like a barman when to have a drink. :lol:

Re: Tanita support?

PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 5:02 am
by old_man_biking
I've been using a BC-1000 for a short while and found it reliable. At least not too volatile.
But as I've written in some other posts: a device like this is a black box and you only see what the manufacturer decides to show you.
I always smile when people post "My XYZ device reports 233.34, ST reports 233.47. Why is ST wrong?" Modern superstition :)

So you can never tell, if the device is really exact and provides non-volatile readings from day to day.
Manufacturing a device like this might cost them 100,000s of $s development cost and reduce their turnover by $20 per device.

Or if the device is a piece of sh*** and the manufacturer has built a filter into the device software that smooths out volatilities.
This might cost them $200 sw development costs.

Just my 2 cents.