Page 1 of 2

TSS

PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 1:41 pm
by curly
When I compare my TSS in ST3 and WKO+ there is a large variation, how is it calculated in ST3? I am aware that when I ammend my FTP in WKO+(Coggan levels) It re-calculates TSS, have I missed something in ST3?
Thanks in anticipation.

Re: TSS

PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 2:24 pm
by PissedOffCil
Did you setup your FTP in Traning Analysis correctly?

Re: TSS

PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 5:04 pm
by curly
PissedOffCil wrote:Did you setup your FTP in Traning Analysis correctly?

I amended it at the bottom of the performance indeces page, is that correct?

Re: TSS

PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 2:23 am
by curly
curly wrote:
PissedOffCil wrote:Did you setup your FTP in Traning Analysis correctly?

I amended it at the bottom of the performance indeces page, is that correct?

BUMP

Re: TSS

PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 6:18 am
by PissedOffCil
curly wrote:
curly wrote:
PissedOffCil wrote:Did you setup your FTP in Traning Analysis correctly?

I amended it at the bottom of the performance indeces page, is that correct?

BUMP


Yes. What kind of difference are we talking about?
TSS is easily to calculate, get the real value and compare, you'll know which is off.

duration (h) x Square(IF) x 100
where IF = NP / TP

I suspect your normalized power is wrong in one of the 2 applicaitons.

Re: TSS

PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 11:52 am
by curly
I have noticed that WKO and ST3 training analysis match up but ST3 Daily activity pane is off???

Re: TSS

PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 12:25 pm
by PissedOffCil
Ahhhh, that TSS comes from Training Load, not Trainnig Analysis. Did you setup Training Load (it uses the athlete custom field called FTPCycle)?

Yes, I agree it sucks having the FTP in multiple places, it should be a standard ST athlete field.

Re: TSS

PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2011 3:04 am
by curly
Thanks for that, I would never have worked it out myself. Hopefully I am all sorted now.

Re: TSS

PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2011 5:40 am
by PissedOffCil
You're welcome.

Re: TSS

PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2011 11:45 pm
by racerfern
BTW, that's one killer ride you did. If your PM is setup correctly, this was a max effort. WOW! But your HR was nowhere near max, strange.

Re: TSS

PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2011 2:44 am
by curly
racerfern wrote:BTW, that's one killer ride you did. If your PM is setup correctly, this was a max effort. WOW! But your HR was nowhere near max, strange.

It sure felt hard! The SRM was recently calibrated so I know that is ok. I think that why the figures look a bit odd is that I was doing 8 min intervals at 110% FTP with good long recoveries and throwing in a few 30s and 1min flat out sprints. But I am relativelly new to power training so any comments are most welcome.

Re: TSS

PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2011 2:57 pm
by curly
PissedOffCil wrote:Ahhhh, that TSS comes from Training Load, not Trainnig Analysis. Did you setup Training Load (it uses the athlete custom field called FTPCycle)?

Yes, I agree it sucks having the FTP in multiple places, it should be a standard ST athlete field.

It worked, a perfect match.

Re: TSS

PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2011 4:51 pm
by racerfern
PissedOffCil wrote:Yes, I agree it sucks having the FTP in multiple places, it should be a standard ST athlete field.


+1
I asked for this previously, not so much that it be a standard ST athlete field, but asking that the two programs (with GF, three programs?) that use FTP do so by having a common FTP declaration. Hopefully there will be some interest in this for the benefit of th end users.

Re: TSS

PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 9:23 am
by curly
I spoke too soon :( Nothing has been altered in the athlete or Training analysis and yet I have WKO TSS @237, ST3 Daily activity TSS @ 200 but ST3 Training analysis TSS a whopping 336.7 :?

Re: TSS

PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 10:24 am
by racerfern
Are you importing a TCX file that has the power data with it? Or some other kind of ride file?

Pauses in rides such as recorded by a Garmin unit will have higher TSS than a ride without pauses such as a PT, SRM or iBike file since they only show the ride time. My iBike files match in WKO and ST3, both Training Analysis and TrainingLoad.

Can you upload the file in question and confirm your FTP settings in ST3 for both FTPcycle and Training Analysis.

Re: TSS

PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 11:11 am
by curly
racerfern wrote:Are you importing a TCX file that has the power data with it? Or some other kind of ride file?
I download SRM data directly from my Edge 705

Pauses in rides such as recorded by a Garmin unit will have higher TSS than a ride without pauses such as a PT, SRM or iBike file since they only show the ride time. My iBike files match in WKO and ST3, both Training Analysis and TrainingLoad.
This may be a possible cause of the anomoly as I had a cafe stop where I turn off and re-start the unit.

Can you upload the file in question and confirm your FTP settings in ST3 for both FTPcycle and Training Analysis.

I have confirmed the settings are indeed the same, fitlog attachment of the ride was to large to upload, can I send you anything else instead?
Thanks for the help so far.

Re: TSS

PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 11:27 am
by staffann
racerfern wrote:
PissedOffCil wrote:Yes, I agree it sucks having the FTP in multiple places, it should be a standard ST athlete field.


+1
I asked for this previously, not so much that it be a standard ST athlete field, but asking that the two programs (with GF, three programs?) that use FTP do so by having a common FTP declaration. Hopefully there will be some interest in this for the benefit of th end users.


I should be possible for the plugins to agree on sharing one custom field. There is a thread in developer section for these things. But the question in that case is which plugin will update that field. You don't want both plugins doing it - that would be even more confusing in the case where they don't calculate the same value. There was a discussion touching those topics before ST3 became public, but I don't think a solution was agreed upon. One alternative was to let the user decide, but there isn't any infrastructure for that yet.

Re: TSS

PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 12:35 pm
by racerfern
staffann wrote:There is a thread in developer section for these things. But the question in that case is which plugin will update that field.


That's an easy one to answer, neither plugin updates the field. FTP is determined after a test and should be updated by the end user not a plugin. The user controls the plugins not the other way around.

Re: TSS

PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 7:16 am
by old_man_biking
Correct - FTP should be entered by the user, like max heart rate or other athlete specific data.

The utmost: a plugin that can calculate estimates for FTP (e.g. Critical Power 60) can offer the user to enter it for him - as a convenience.

Cheers,
OMB

Re: TSS

PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:30 pm
by curly
old_man_biking wrote:Correct - FTP should be entered by the user, like max heart rate or other athlete specific data.

The utmost: a plugin that can calculate estimates for FTP (e.g. Critical Power 60) can offer the user to enter it for him - as a convenience.

Cheers,
OMB

Glad you are here OMB, what do you think caused this?

Re: TSS

PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 5:25 pm
by PissedOffCil
curly wrote:
old_man_biking wrote:Correct - FTP should be entered by the user, like max heart rate or other athlete specific data.

The utmost: a plugin that can calculate estimates for FTP (e.g. Critical Power 60) can offer the user to enter it for him - as a convenience.

Cheers,
OMB

Glad you are here OMB, what do you think caused this?


2H20min at IF 1.01 = 235 TSS.
I have no clue how this could be computed at 335...

Re: TSS

PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 6:44 pm
by racerfern
1) There's something else that's wrong. No one is doing FTP for two hours. That means your FTP setting is incorrect.

2) I keep two logbooks, one with the tcx files for fun only and one with the power data (try importing the SRM file directly). I rely on the power data for training and comparison purposes because the TCX file introduces errors with paused time, stops, etc.

If using the power data, my numbers from WKO to Golden Cheetah to ST3 all match. If using the TCX file, there are differences. It gets worse if you have a TCX file that drops the ANT+ signal and substantially worse if you have a cafe stop on a club ride.

BTW, this problem with TCX files is not just an ST problem. The same thing happens in WKO, it's very annoying. I would look to TrainingLoad for TSS/CTL/ATl/TSB and I would look to Training Analysis to drill into the activity for interval purposes, CPxx, etc.

Re: TSS

PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 9:04 pm
by PissedOffCil
racerfern wrote:1) There's something else that's wrong. No one is doing FTP for two hours. That means your FTP setting is incorrect.


I thought the same but it's irrelevant to the discussion so I didn't mention it. The computed TSS should still have been 235 given the duration and IF of 1.01.

Re: TSS

PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 2:05 am
by old_man_biking
curly wrote:
old_man_biking wrote:Correct - FTP should be entered by the user, like max heart rate or other athlete specific data.

The utmost: a plugin that can calculate estimates for FTP (e.g. Critical Power 60) can offer the user to enter it for him - as a convenience.

Cheers,
OMB

Glad you are here OMB, what do you think caused this?


The duration of 2:19 is moving time, i.e. has undergone some filtering in ST.
I cannot see the total time of this activity from your data and screen shots.

Could you please upload an exported FITLOG file of your activity.
Racerfern had similar issues in the past that might be related to a huge discrepancy of total time vs. moving time as well.

Cheers,
OMB

PS: When writing this post I clicked the wrong button first, EDITED your post and DELETED your uploaded image.
Sorry for that :oops: :oops: Maybe you could attach it to your post again.

Re: TSS

PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 2:41 am
by curly
PissedOffCil wrote:
curly wrote:
old_man_biking wrote:Correct - FTP should be entered by the user, like max heart rate or other athlete specific data.

The utmost: a plugin that can calculate estimates for FTP (e.g. Critical Power 60) can offer the user to enter it for him - as a convenience.

Cheers,
OMB

Glad you are here OMB, what do you think caused this?


2H20min at IF 1.01 = 235 TSS.

I have no clue how this could be computed at 335...

This is the exact figure I got in WKO+