quadrant analysis for cycling with a power meter

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quadrant analysis for cycling with a power meter

Postby 7270martin » Wed Aug 19, 2009 7:19 am

What about implementing the quadrant analysis in ST? Would be a great tool to analyze trainigs with a power data.

It could be used to analyze one training or compare several trainings, based on two factors velocity and force.

Afaik, not even WKO+ includes that.


See links for more info:

http://alex-cycle.blogspot.com/2009/01/ ... lysis.html

http://colinsbikingbits.blogspot.com/20 ... -road.html

http://home.earthlink.net/~acoggan/quadrantanalysis/
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Re: quadrant analysis for cycling with a power meter

Postby DavidCHall » Wed Aug 19, 2009 11:20 pm

7270martin wrote:What about implementing the quadrant analysis in ST?


it's an interesting analysis: Maybe somebody can convince a plug in author to tackle the task? perhaps OMB will consider adding this to his considerable work on power.

There is a published Excel version that can be used with ST: if you are interested in the detailed download and instructions post your request in the thread.
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Re: quadrant analysis for cycling with a power meter

Postby mechgt » Thu Aug 20, 2009 7:31 am

DavidCHall wrote:
7270martin wrote:What about implementing the quadrant analysis in ST?


it's an interesting analysis: Maybe somebody can convince a plug in author to tackle the task? perhaps OMB will consider adding this to his considerable work on power.

There is a published Excel version that can be used with ST: if you are interested in the detailed download and instructions post your request in the thread.


I'd be interested in seeing the Excel sheet.
Last edited by mechgt on Thu Aug 20, 2009 9:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby 7270martin » Thu Aug 20, 2009 9:33 am

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Postby DavidCHall » Thu Aug 20, 2009 11:19 pm

7270martin wrote:Here you go:


What I do is export a activities of interest as a .fitlog from ST and than import the data into the Excel spreadsheets (see previous posts) to view the graph. (I record all my data, including power from a PowerTap, using a Garmin Edge 705, and then read the activity into ST for analysis)

The single graph is rather difficult to read (in my view) but the comparitive (multigraph) provides a very clear activity comparison.
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Postby 7270martin » Fri Aug 21, 2009 1:17 am

I agree, the single graph is a bit difficult to read.

A way to improve would be to display an elevation profile above the quadrant analysis. In addition the xy-combinations could be colored based on their timely sequence, as OMB did it in his power analysis plugin, see

http://www.sporttracks-plugins.com/Spor ... index.html
(select English right above, then 'my plugins'/'power analysis' on the left, then 'manual' above, then section 2.1)

By means of that, you could allocate a single xy-combination to where and when it happened during the acitivity.

In order to reduce the amount of xy-combinations, also an averaging intervall could be used (as in power analysis by OMB).



Very cool would be a summary to see how much time was spent in each quadrant. As well as distance travelled per quadrant, avg heart rate, avg. cadence, avg grade, total ascent/descent etc. Such data would also help to compare activities.
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Postby 7270martin » Wed Sep 09, 2009 9:58 am

some good explanation of the factors of power:
http://anonymous.coward.free.fr/wattage ... nents.html

Maybe instead of displaying rather unfamiliar values like 'Circumferential pedal velocity (m/s)', we could also use cadence per minute.
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Postby mechgt » Sat Nov 28, 2009 3:41 pm

Coming eventaully...
Image
By mechgt at 2009-11-28

It's not ready yet, but just wanted to throw it out there that it'll be coming out sometime sooner or later.
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Postby DavidCHall » Sun Nov 29, 2009 6:50 am

mechgt wrote:it'll be coming out sometime sooner or later.


Very cool: I look forward to an early beta.
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Postby racerfern » Sun Nov 29, 2009 2:26 pm

Golden Cheetah has a quadrant analysis graph and if this comes to ST it will be a super super feature.
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Postby 7270martin » Wed Dec 02, 2009 7:18 am

didn't know golden cheetah.
http://www.goldencheetah.org/screenshots.html

The screenshot 5 (quadrant analysis) is very nice, especially in combination with the shaded power zones. Would be absolutely cool if this could be implemented in ST somehow and somewhen. (Besides colorization of the dots based on time elapsed).

Also pretty neat is the 3rd screenshot: critical power.
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Postby mechgt » Wed Dec 02, 2009 8:08 am

7270martin wrote:...Also pretty neat is the 3rd screenshot: critical power.


Check out:
http://www.zonefivesoftware.com/SportTr ... php?t=6791
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Postby racerfern » Wed Dec 02, 2009 10:10 am

http://www.zonefivesoftware.com/SportTracks/Forums/viewtopic.php?t=6791


Can you repost the picture at the above link it doesn't show for me.
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Postby mechgt » Tue Dec 15, 2009 11:48 pm

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Postby racerfern » Wed Dec 16, 2009 12:55 am

Very impressive for beta 0.1

Where are you getting FTP from because that affects the graph?

You might want to clip pedal force over 600 or 700 so the "Y" axis is spread out better.

This suddenly makes you pay attention to your cadence. Example, I did an activity that the average pedaling cadence was 80. However because of smoothing ST shows it as 73 and the analysis is skewed. I need to adjust my smoothing in ST.

The dash lines need to be a bit heavier.

What about crank length?
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Postby DavidCHall » Wed Dec 16, 2009 3:58 am

mechgt wrote:Beta version v0.1 posted


Very nice. Fired up flawlessly.

An immediately useful analysis too...
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Postby mechgt » Wed Dec 16, 2009 8:00 am

racerfern wrote:Very impressive for beta 0.1

Where are you getting FTP from because that affects the graph?

You might want to clip pedal force over 600 or 700 so the "Y" axis is spread out better.

This suddenly makes you pay attention to your cadence. Example, I did an activity that the average pedaling cadence was 80. However because of smoothing ST shows it as 73 and the analysis is skewed. I need to adjust my smoothing in ST.

The dash lines need to be a bit heavier.

What about crank length?

DavidCHall wrote:Very nice. Fired up flawlessly.


Great, thanks for the feedback!
- The 'power' is just the avg. power for the ride. It's not stored anywhere yet (in fact, there are no stored 'settings' in this plugin yet.) Same for cadence. You can change the numbers in the box to move the chartlines around if you like.
- I didn't know what to clip force at (by 'clip' I just mean setting zoom, not changing data.) I arbitrarily chose 1200 when initially setting the zoom, but can certainly bring it down a bit if that's general consensus. The zoom is a little funny on this chart so I'd like to err on the side of 'larger' rather than smaller.
- Heaver dash lines... will do
- Crank length is hard-coded at 175mm at the moment :) This is used to calculate pedal force. This will be a user setting when I add settings to it.

This chart is not the regular SportTracks chart. You can drag a box to zoom on this chart if you want to, and there's a right-click menu that does more zooming and other stuff.

I've read a bit on this advanced power analysis subject, but I'm still not 100% on how to use it as a training tool and how it's going to make me faster. In addition to UI & technical feedback, let me know how you guys will be using this as a training tool to make you faster.

The next big step will be to allow comparison between multiple activities.
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Postby racerfern » Wed Dec 16, 2009 8:53 am

Two things:

1) If the Y axis went to 600 then the intersection of the quadrants wouldn't be stuck way down and the "spread" of the points would be more readable.


2) Perhaps a clickable box that contains a brief explanation.

1st Quadrant - Upper Right - High Force and High Velocity such as sprinting

2nd Quadrant - Upper Left - High Force and Low Velocity such as climbing, MTB riding

3rd Quadrant - Lower Left - Low Force and Low Velocity such as recovery rides, social rides

4th Quadrant - Lower Right - Low Force and High Velocity such as fixed gear, rollers, training.

This was all gleaned from:
http://home.trainingpeaks.com/articles/ ... lysis.aspx
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Postby DavidCHall » Wed Dec 16, 2009 9:31 am

This is a really nice addition: Thanks for investing your time and effort to create this, and thanks for sharing this with the world: We get the benefit without investing the effort.

If you did nothing further this would still be an excellent piece of work: Please accept my suggestions with this in mind!!!

1. The zoom / pan takes a bit of getting used to. There is a Zoom +- button (great). Perhaps add a button to Pan L/R U/D?
2. Power / Cadence (data entry): Place on the same horisantal line: A bit less wasted screen real estate.
3. The addition of multiple activities (already on your ToDo list) will really be great.
4. Can you display somewhere the number (as a %?) of points in each quadrant?
5. Can you colour the points in some way to indicate where in the activity the point was created. Even better if there is (in addition) some way to zoom in on your activity: ie look only at a particular lap or time window.
6. Perhaps an option to add a few more power curves: The curve you have is great, but perhaps add a +10% and -10% curve.
7. A button to restore power + cadence to your default.
8. Restore to default zoom / pan button is present, but not active.
9. This is a great addition: But most folks are going to have no idea what the data means, and how to interpret and use it. Can you add a "Help" button: This could pop up a window that explains what the analysis means and you to use the information. As an offer: I am willing to write the text for you...
10. Another statistic: Add a display S(dX^2 + dY^2). This shows the "tighness" of your data. The calculation here is: For each point take the X distance from your Power / Cadence mean intersection. Square it, and add the Y distance squared. Add all points.
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Postby texmurphy » Wed Dec 16, 2009 10:47 am

Very nice!

- Note that here we have a plugin development discussion in an Enhancements forum. Maybe the posts should be moved to the Plugin Forum.

- The scroll mouse wheel quickly moves the chart into negative value areas which makes no sense for cadence and force although when exhausted I can feel this way.

- Multiple activity comparison would be great ala the Overlay Plugin, assigning different colors per activity and matching the curve line to the color. This would need an Edit menu entry on the Reports. So maybe with single activity dot colorization based on time, multiple activity based on occurrence.
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Postby racerfern » Wed Dec 16, 2009 11:27 am

+1 on the moving cadence and power to one line. Then add on that line crank length and FTP

Also I like the idea that nothing is stored in the logbook. My logbook just hig 100meg and the last thing I need is to bloat it more.

I'm not crazy about comparing two activities this way as higher cadence moves the dots from below the horizontal to above and that's the key IMO. This is excellent for training purposes especially on a trainer.
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Postby mechgt » Wed Dec 16, 2009 12:11 pm

DavidCHall wrote:This is a really nice addition: Thanks for investing your time and effort to create this, and thanks for sharing this with the world: We get the benefit without investing the effort.

:)
DavidCHall wrote:2. Power / Cadence (data entry): Place on the same horisantal line: A bit less wasted screen real estate.
3. The addition of multiple activities (already on your ToDo list) will really be great.
4. Can you display somewhere the number (as a %?) of points in each quadrant?

There's other stuff planned for this area... thus the wasted space. This is where the activity comparison UI will go, and possibly stats like points/time in quadrant.
DavidCHall wrote:6. Perhaps an option to add a few more power curves: The curve you have is great, but perhaps add a +10% and -10% curve.

Planned... will get to eventually. I like the colored bands referenced a few posts back, but will have to figure out how to do that.
DavidCHall wrote:8. Restore to default zoom / pan button is present, but not active.

I'll look at it and see if I can't fix this.
DavidCHall wrote:9. This is a great addition: But most folks are going to have no idea what the data means, and how to interpret and use it. Can you add a "Help" button: This could pop up a window that explains what the analysis means and you to use the information. As an offer: I am willing to write the text for you...

Definitely! You've got my email (or PM). Send it on over.
DavidCHall wrote:10. Another statistic: Add a display S(dX^2 + dY^2). This shows the "tighness" of your data. The calculation here is: For each point take the X distance from your Power / Cadence mean intersection. Square it, and add the Y distance squared. Add all points.

I'll look into that...

There are several mentions of 'zoom' stuff. I don't know how to control it very well yet, so you'll probably just have to live with it for the moment. The 'zoom to fit' button should work (although David mentioned it didn't work?). I can fix that, but the only thing I can do for now on the other stuff is to disable it.
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Postby cervelorod » Wed Dec 16, 2009 12:35 pm

Okay, I'm not the brightest bulb in the lamp with ST yet, but how do I open a Computrainer ride with this plugin?

It says it is installed with the latest version, but I can't find the "open" sign....

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Postby DavidCHall » Wed Dec 16, 2009 1:37 pm

cervelorod wrote:how do I open a Computrainer ride with this plugin?


Have a look here, for the Computrainer import plugin download link.

The plugin described should enable you to open your Computrainer file: And any problems you experiance can be addressed on the Computrainer import plugin thread.

Once you have your activity imported to SportTracks you can use this plugin to do a Quadrant Analysis (assuming Computrainer gives power data??)
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Postby cervelorod » Wed Dec 16, 2009 1:52 pm

DavidCHall wrote:
cervelorod wrote:how do I open a Computrainer ride with this plugin?


Have a look here, for the Computrainer import plugin download link.

The plugin described should enable you to open your Computrainer file: And any problems you experiance can be addressed on the Computrainer import plugin thread.

Once you have your activity imported to SportTracks you can use this plugin to do a Quadrant Analysis (assuming Computrainer gives power data??)


I have my Computrainer data in ST as an activity. How do I use Quadrant analysis to review it?

There is power data, ie watts, in my CT data.

Thanks,
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