Garmin Edge 705 firmware 2.30

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Garmin Edge 705 firmware 2.30

Postby bb » Thu Jul 31, 2008 1:37 pm

I do not see stopped time, just total time and zero stopped time. Garmin Training Center presents the same tcx file correctly. I supose it worked well before the update to 2.30.
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Re: Garmin Edge 705 firmware 2.30

Postby kdharper » Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:41 pm

bb wrote:I do not see stopped time, just total time and zero stopped time. Garmin Training Center presents the same tcx file correctly. I supose it worked well before the update to 2.30.


Ah, but have you noticed that GTC doesn't give you a record of stopped time? Neither does Garmin Connect nor Motionbased come to that?

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Re: Garmin Edge 705 firmware 2.30

Postby bb » Fri Aug 01, 2008 1:50 pm

kdharper wrote:
bb wrote:I do not see stopped time, just total time and zero stopped time. Garmin Training Center presents the same tcx file correctly. I supose it worked well before the update to 2.30.


Ah, but have you noticed that GTC doesn't give you a record of stopped time? Neither does Garmin Connect nor Motionbased come to that?

Kevin


Well, and now try to explain the problem for total beginner, will you ?
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Re: Garmin Edge 705 firmware 2.30

Postby kdharper » Fri Aug 01, 2008 3:05 pm

bb wrote:
kdharper wrote:
bb wrote:I do not see stopped time, just total time and zero stopped time. Garmin Training Center presents the same tcx file correctly. I supose it worked well before the update to 2.30.


Ah, but have you noticed that GTC doesn't give you a record of stopped time? Neither does Garmin Connect nor Motionbased come to that?

Kevin


Well, and now try to explain the problem for total beginner, will you ?


Sorry, looking back at my post, I think I took too big a leap in what I was trying to say. Basically,

(1) I just wonder whether although the edge 705 records stopped time, does the stopped time actually get saved in the edge history file

(2) if so, does sporttracks have a problem in picking up the stopped time from the history file,

(3) it appears that neither GTC, GC nor MB actually shows a record of stopped time, only sporttracks does, and

(4) because GTC, GC and MB don't record the stopped time, there is no way to easily determine whether the fault is with the Edge software or with sporttracks through comparison!

GTC = Garmin Training Center

Garmin Connect (GC) is http://connect.garmin.com, which is the online resource referred in the Edge 605/705 manual

Motion Based (MB) is http://trail.motionbased.com, which was the old version of Garmin Connect.

HTH

Kevin
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Postby gerhard » Fri Aug 01, 2008 6:15 pm

Stopped Time is ST notion of speed below the threshold. This can be configured to be included or excluded from the activity time. Supposedly (I am not sure), MB has a similar concept but the cut-off speed and include/exclude cannot be configured.

For the device/GTC similar functionality can be achieved with auto-pause.

The auto-pauses in GF 405 and Edge 705 seem to not always be recorded in the .TCX History. This causes the activity time to mismatch when Stopped time is included and ST to add an extra lap since the time reported from the device does not match the track points.
Export a .fitlog to see the pauses (both manual and auto) that the device report to ST in the .TCX.

So this is easy to check: Include Stopped Time and the device/GTC and ST activity time should match.

The simplest solution is to not use auto-pause (and exclude Stopped Time in ST).

The workaround to get Activity time to match is to Exclude Stopped time adjusting the Stopped Speed.
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Postby kdharper » Sat Aug 02, 2008 9:02 am

gerhard wrote:Stopped Time is ST notion of speed below the threshold. This can be configured to be included or excluded from the activity time. Supposedly (I am not sure), MB has a similar concept but the cut-off speed and include/exclude cannot be configured.

For the device/GTC similar functionality can be achieved with auto-pause.

The auto-pauses in GF 405 and Edge 705 seem to not always be recorded in the .TCX History. This causes the activity time to mismatch when Stopped time is included and ST to add an extra lap since the time reported from the device does not match the track points.
Export a .fitlog to see the pauses (both manual and auto) that the device report to ST in the .TCX.

So this is easy to check: Include Stopped Time and the device/GTC and ST activity time should match.

The simplest solution is to not use auto-pause (and exclude Stopped Time in ST).

The workaround to get Activity time to match is to Exclude Stopped time adjusting the Stopped Speed.


Gerhard, thank you. I was rapidly coming to this conclusion myself. My Edge is displaying the stopped time when I ride, but obviously it isn't saving it properly. It's interesting to note that if I look at the splits in ST for one of my rides with a zero lap, the first lap shows the ride time and the second lap shows the stopped time! Could this be a problem with how ST is interpreting the data?

I understood that V2.30 of the edge software was meant to resolve the zero lap problem.

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Postby gerhard » Sat Aug 02, 2008 1:29 pm

kdharper wrote:Could this be a problem with how ST is interpreting the data?

ST interprets the data as presented from the device. For the missing information where the device reorts a shorter lap than the track points show. IMO, this is good so it is possible to see that there is an error. The alternative would be to automatically add missing time and distance to laps. That is problematic as the device and ST has different distance calculations so the lap distance markers would be off.

kdharper wrote:I understood that V2.30 of the edge software was meant to resolve the zero lap problem.

Reading the Release Notes, the correction is for reported laps from the device. There is no notation that auto-pause were not included in TCX files.
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Postby kdharper » Sat Aug 02, 2008 3:05 pm

gerhard wrote:
kdharper wrote:Could this be a problem with how ST is interpreting the data?

ST interprets the data as presented from the device. For the missing information where the device reorts a shorter lap than the track points show. IMO, this is good so it is possible to see that there is an error. The alternative would be to automatically add missing time and distance to laps. That is problematic as the device and ST has different distance calculations so the lap distance markers would be off.

kdharper wrote:I understood that V2.30 of the edge software was meant to resolve the zero lap problem.

Reading the Release Notes, the correction is for reported laps from the device. There is no notation that auto-pause were not included in TCX files.


Strange thing is that until I installed V2.30 of the Edge 705 software, ST showed my stop time. Logically, this problem is something that V2.30 has introduced!

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Re: Garmin Edge 705 firmware 2.30

Postby kdharper » Mon Aug 04, 2008 4:59 am

kdharper wrote:
bb wrote:
kdharper wrote:
bb wrote:I do not see stopped time, just total time and zero stopped time. Garmin Training Center presents the same tcx file correctly. I supose it worked well before the update to 2.30.


Ah, but have you noticed that GTC doesn't give you a record of stopped time? Neither does Garmin Connect nor Motionbased come to that?

Kevin


Well, and now try to explain the problem for total beginner, will you ?


Sorry, looking back at my post, I think I took too big a leap in what I was trying to say. Basically,

(1) I just wonder whether although the edge 705 records stopped time, does the stopped time actually get saved in the edge history file

(2) if so, does sporttracks have a problem in picking up the stopped time from the history file,

(3) it appears that neither GTC, GC nor MB actually shows a record of stopped time, only sporttracks does, and

(4) because GTC, GC and MB don't record the stopped time, there is no way to easily determine whether the fault is with the Edge software or with sporttracks through comparison!

GTC = Garmin Training Center

Garmin Connect (GC) is http://connect.garmin.com, which is the online resource referred in the Edge 605/705 manual

Motion Based (MB) is http://trail.motionbased.com, which was the old version of Garmin Connect.

HTH

Kevin


Apologies. I've just checked - MB DOES indicate stopped time. I was looking at the headings on the digest page. Stopped time is given in the Time link on the activity dashboard.

It appears now then that there is something not quite right with the stopped time display in ST and the info from the Edge. It might be something to do with this Zero lap problem

Kevin
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Postby DuetDeux » Mon Mar 23, 2009 8:47 am

kdharper wrote:
gerhard wrote:
kdharper wrote:Could this be a problem with how ST is interpreting the data?

ST interprets the data as presented from the device. For the missing information where the device reorts a shorter lap than the track points show. IMO, this is good so it is possible to see that there is an error. The alternative would be to automatically add missing time and distance to laps. That is problematic as the device and ST has different distance calculations so the lap distance markers would be off.

kdharper wrote:I understood that V2.30 of the edge software was meant to resolve the zero lap problem.

Reading the Release Notes, the correction is for reported laps from the device. There is no notation that auto-pause were not included in TCX files.


Strange thing is that until I installed V2.30 of the Edge 705 software, ST showed my stop time. Logically, this problem is something that V2.30 has introduced!

Kevin


I know this is an old topic, but has this been fixed?
I just got my new 705 and it has firmware v2.60 and ST does not show stopped time

What is interesting, is that data uploaded to facebook via/with myMotionbased displays both total time including and excluding stopped time.


http://apps.facebook.com/mymotionbased/?fbu=564702749

Rgds,
Orjan
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Postby kdharper » Mon Mar 23, 2009 9:02 am

DuetDeux wrote:I know this is an old topic, but has this been fixed?
I just got my new 705 and it has firmware v2.60 and ST does not show stopped time

What is interesting, is that data uploaded to facebook via/with myMotionbased displays both total time including and excluding stopped time.


http://apps.facebook.com/mymotionbased/?fbu=564702749

Rgds,
Orjan


It appears to have been fixed with V2.60. It seems to work for me. A few questions:-

Is your 705 set up for autopause? If not, it can be set from Training>Auto Pause/Lap> I use a custom speed of 0.5 mph

Do you have ST set correctly? It can be set from settings>display>analysis> Under the activity heading I do not have either the "include stopped in time&distance totals" or the "include watch pauses in stopped totals" boxes checked (ticked). I also do not have any of the data smoothing boxes checked.

HTH

Kevin
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Postby DuetDeux » Mon Mar 23, 2009 9:17 am

kdharper wrote:
DuetDeux wrote:I know this is an old topic, but has this been fixed?
I just got my new 705 and it has firmware v2.60 and ST does not show stopped time

What is interesting, is that data uploaded to facebook via/with myMotionbased displays both total time including and excluding stopped time.


http://apps.facebook.com/mymotionbased/?fbu=564702749

Rgds,
Orjan


It appears to have been fixed with V2.60. It seems to work for me. A few questions:-

Is your 705 set up for autopause? If not, it can be set from Training>Auto Pause/Lap> I use a custom speed of 0.5 mph

Do you have ST set correctly? It can be set from settings>display>analysis> Under the activity heading I do not have either the "include stopped in time&distance totals" or the "include watch pauses in stopped totals" boxes checked (ticked). I also do not have any of the data smoothing boxes checked.

HTH

Kevin

Hi Kevin, thanks for a lightning fast reply :)

I had Auto Pause set but not with a custom speed. I changed that now.
I did not have the first two checkboxes under analysis checked, but I had smoothing set. Removing smoothing seems to have fixed it.

Does that mean the problem is fixed in v2.60? :), I have no idea, but at least my totals are functioning now.

Thanks,
Orjan
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Postby kdharper » Mon Mar 23, 2009 9:27 am

DuetDeux wrote:Hi Kevin, thanks for a lightning fast reply :)

I had Auto Pause set but not with a custom speed. I changed that now.
I did not have the first two checkboxes under analysis checked, but I had smoothing set. Removing smoothing seems to have fixed it.

Does that mean the problem is fixed in v2.60? :), I have no idea, but at least my totals are functioning now.

Thanks,
Orjan


Orjan,

No problem - glad to be of help.

I'm not sure that Garmin have fully fixed the problem - I've got a sneaking feeling they're nearly there, but they may have introduced a slight hiccough elsewhere in fixing it - but it does seem to do what it should now.

Something else you may like to try which is unrelated to the autopause issue, but is peculiar to sporttracks and the Edge 705:-

In the Summary section of the Daily activity window, you will see a little calculator icon next to the word "data". Click on this and switch to the pencil icon. Your distance and time values should now be far closer (if not the same as) the ones you see in motionbased.

Kevin
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Postby DuetDeux » Mon Mar 23, 2009 9:39 am

I was way too quick here.. because the data remained the same as before. Use manually entered data makes them "correct" as far as I can see, but that worked before as well.
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Postby kdharper » Mon Mar 23, 2009 11:25 am

DuetDeux wrote:I was way too quick here.. because the data remained the same as before. Use manually entered data makes them "correct" as far as I can see, but that worked before as well.


Sorry, I don't know then. Hopefully Gerhard may be along with an answer soon - he's an absolute ST whizz!
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Postby gerhard » Mon Mar 23, 2009 6:28 pm

Since I do not have an Edge 705, I do not know if the previous bug was resolved: Pauses were not noted in the track points, only in the summary information. Using Manual Calculation will give same result as GTC, as no calculations are done (the track data is ignored in GTC).

It seems (from users reports) like pauses are noted in the .TCX since the FW correction, at least partly, if it is resolved fully or not, I do not know.

The Garmin .TCX format is documented, but you still have to do some guessing when parsing the format, how to use the data is not documented. The Edge 705 seem to create TCX files that are different from other formats. Unless ST 2.1 or new Edge FW changed something, ST may not handle pauses completely correctly. When I last looked at the TCX files, it was impossible to find the exact length of pauses, you would have to do some guessing.

I have suggested the following algorithm to admin.


Suggested algorithm - complicated but "ST and device differs" is a common question:
* All </track><track> is potentially a pause.
* See if invalid points are around the track, then this defines the pause.
* If no invalid points, always add pause if this is not at a lap boundary. Use seconds just after/before the valid points.
* If at a lap, use laptime+pauses in lap as last valid time and lap start time as first valid time. Add pause if differ with more than 1 second.
* Goldplating, can be done in plugin: If laptime is less than reported lap time, add seconds to pauses differing more then two sec until time matches within one sec (or no more long enough pauses)

Currently, ST uses step 1 and 2 (to my knowledge)

admin has considered open sourcing the import plugins included in ST to simplify corrections of issues like this
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Stopped time added to total time with 705

Postby g8tor96 » Sat Apr 24, 2010 1:37 pm

Has an answer to this problem been found yet? I just upgraded to an Edge 705 from an Edge 305 and now the stop times are being added to the Time and not the Stopped Time like it did with the 305. If I switch from calculated values under DATA to manually entered values then the Time is right but Stopped time still shows 0:00

Thanks

Scott
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Stopped time added to total time with 705

Postby ddmartin » Sat Apr 24, 2010 9:36 pm

Under 'Display\Analysis', try deselecting both 'Include stopped in time & distance totals' and 'Include watch pauses in stopped totals'. Use 'calculated values' under DATA.

Stopped times should then be included in 'Stopped Time' (not sure why).
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Postby g8tor96 » Sat Apr 24, 2010 10:39 pm

I have tried it that way and I have also tried unchecking all the boxes under data smoothing. But it still doesn't work. It worked with the 305 and I had 'Include stopped in time & distance totals' unchecked and 'Include watch pauses in stopped totals' checked.

Also the 705 is software version 3.10

Thanks,

Scott
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Postby ddmartin » Sun Apr 25, 2010 8:38 am

I don't know why yours works differently.

My stuff:

Garmin 705
Software version: 3.10
GPS version: 2.10
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Postby g8tor96 » Sun Apr 25, 2010 8:57 am

Do you have auto pause turned on on your 705? If you push the start/stop button on your 705 in the middle of an exercise to stop the timer then push it again to restart it, the amount of time that was stopped shows up correctly in SportTracks under 'stopped' time instead of getting added to the 'Time'?

Thanks for helping,
Scott
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Postby ddmartin » Sun Apr 25, 2010 12:07 pm

Auto pause is on (custom speed <2 km/h), but the stopped time gets recorded properly whether I use that or push the stop/start button.

There is a 'show stopped' check box on the display/routes page that I have selected. I'm not sure what exactly that does.

I don't know what else to suggest.
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Postby g8tor96 » Sun Apr 25, 2010 1:08 pm

I have auto pause on too. Mine is set at 3mph. I think the 'show stopped' check box in routes shows the pause symbol on the map anywhere you stopped. I have that box checked. Its frustrating that its not working but if you have yours working there must be a way. I'll keep experimenting. If you think of anything else let me know.

Thanks,
Scott
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Postby g8tor96 » Sun Apr 25, 2010 4:56 pm

I did a short exercise and recorded it with both the 705 and the 305. I then imported them both to ST and exported a fitness log file for each one. Both files looked very similar except for one section missing in the 705 fitness log file
Edge 305:
<TrackClock>
<Pause EndTime="2010-04-24T17:46:30Z" StartTime="2010-04-24T17:45:46Z" />
</TrackClock>
the 705 does not have this section in its log file. Does this spark any ideas from anyone?
Thanks,
Scott
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Postby g8tor96 » Sun Apr 25, 2010 5:21 pm

When I copy the above lines from the 305 fitness log into the 705 log and then import it back to ST it now shows the right time and stopped time. However, under the splits view it is still not quite right.

in the top section the split times are correct.

lap 1 2:22
lap 2 :45

However, in the lower section, the bar graph shows

lap 1 2:22
lap 2 3:08

for lap 2 it just added the :45 to the 2:22 to give a cumulative time.

Scott[/img]
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