I am crushed....

[Crackle]

I didn't keep anything but a fairly basic equipment list. I simply re-created that in Connect with the summary mileages in the title i.e Audax (10,000 miles @2018) and then assigned any rides from the beginning of this year. So I just add the summary total to the new tracking total.

It's taken me a few days to work up my historic data in Connect with searchable titles and the correct categories and transfer of notes I wanted but I'm quite happy with it now. The communicator plugin stopping working in st3 was the breaker for me and I've now stopped using it. Am i locked into Garmin now. Well not really. As you can upload gpx files etc... I can use any equipment. Will it be there forever. Who the hell knows, it doesn't matter.

[hubrat]

I had a quick look at My Tour Book but couldn't make sense of the interface.

My last few years worth of data is in Strava as my Garmins automatically sync to it but find the features a bit limited so I've still been using SportTracks for the detailed analysis, particularly the Training Load plugin. Today I came across the Strava Elevate browser plugin https://thomaschampagne.github.io/elevate/#/landing that appears to have a close enough fitness model to training load for my needs as well as heaps of other info. The first sync took a while and then I had to repeat it as I hadn't put in some custom data such as my runningFTP but I'm happy enough with what it shows to keep using it. The extension is open source on github which is also nice.

I've also set Strava to give me a notification when my shoes get to 400km and there appear to be other extensions that can provide detailed gear tracking and notification for my bike like https://www.probikegarage.com/ if I want that level of tracking.

I'll probably keep running ST3 in parallel until it stops working and keep backups of all my .tcx / .fit files so I've always go a local copy if Strava oneday lock me out of my data.

Now I just need a good dot racing alternative, Strava flyby's is good but I'd like to compare different activities of my own.

[admin]

If users are considering migration to Strava and relying on features from addins like Elevate (was Stravaistix) I would urge them to be fully informed of the Strava API terms of service and research whether the addins comply (hint, most of them do not). Strava terms are very restrictive and they have recently demonstrated they will revoke API access to partners who have been around years and spent thousands of hours in developing and extending the Strava customer base, with little warning, explanation, or recourse, typically on the umbrella "non compete" clauses in the terms of service.

[ACree]

If users are considering migration to Strava and relying on features from addins like Elevate (was Stravaistix) I would urge them to be fully informed of the Strava API terms of service and research whether the addins comply (hint, most of them do not). Strava terms are very restrictive and they have recently demonstrated they will revoke API access to partners who have been around years and spent thousands of hours in developing and extending the Strava customer base, with little warning, explanation, or recourse, typically on the umbrella "non compete" clauses in the terms of service.

That would be very disappointing.

Right up there with:

Feb 2018
"If you've purchased a ST3 license in the past, you can be confident that your license will not expire or terminate and that we will continue to make the software available for download as you need to re-install it or move it to a new machine. Licensed customers will continue to be supported via email and our social media channels, as they have for the last 15 years. That is a commitment we are making."

Apr 2019
Forget that - we're stopping all support.

[gregoryx]

Agreed on the Strava concerns. If someone is looking to Strava as their new repository of "your" data, that would be at least as foolish as sticking with ST-Mobi.

Clearly, any assurances that the ST-Mobi team will perform honorably are useless as proven comparison to their assurances of ST3 longevity a year ago. I suspect they are now in some, "it's our only choice," or whatever mindset to justify their behavior; but that's fine. We're all human.

Strava made some bad changes years ago that affected outside integration and got enough push-back from the user-base that they changed back. But that was previous ownership, IIRC. The direction they're going now is almost certainly to integrate features that previously were made by outside parties. Oh, wait... that's the ST3 / Mobi progression as well. Proving the point, really.

So... don't go to Strava if you think of it as YOUR data and you expect any features to meet YOUR expectations. And... same for ST-Mobi.

The only honorable action for the ST3 folks would be to remove the license locks and/or open-source the code. But... instead... pot, meet kettle.

[admin]

Agreed on the Strava concerns. If someone is looking to Strava as their new repository of "your" data, that would be at least as foolish as sticking with ST-Mobi.

Rather, I can't say we agreed at all, perhaps I didn't communicate clearly.

I have no concerns about Strava itself. It is a perfectly fine place to store your data, as are many other apps. Their mobile tracking apps are fine, especially for biking, and their features will meet the needs of basic users. It's great if you want a social fitness feed or features such as live tracking. It is not nearly as powerful as SportTracks in terms of analysis and data tracking, but it is probably just as reliable - they use the same infrastructure as we do

I point out a risk if customers are relying on addons for critical features so they can make a fully informed decision if they haven't done research. There's no problem with using Strava (free or premium), or open source PC apps mentioned above, or vendor apps such as Garmin, or SportTracks.

Strava made some bad changes years ago that affected outside integration and got enough push-back from the user-base that they changed back. But that was previous ownership, IIRC

Assurances that ownership has changed and wont actually enforce the terms of service of the API are little consolation to customers of the segment challenge app that was shut down a few weeks ago due to Strava yanking access with 20 minutes notice.

[gregoryx]

I think you're offering additional information to support the problem that you won't (can't) acknowledge: Strava or Facebook or any other online data source offers us silly assurances that everything will be just fine because your data is in secure data centers with lots of backup systems. But the problem is how choices are made on what to do with that data. You are part of this problem now, so you can't see the problem.

I don't want assurances that Strava or ST-Mobi will be 100% reliable or retained for as long as the owners choose to do so. That's all hogwash as a policy change / ownership change / billing change from Amazon / legal situation / whatever could completely change the landscape from under all of you and I'm the one who gets a notice of how sorry everyone is but an assurance that your data is safe even though it's no longer available to use as you previously might have wanted to use it.

Yeah... a rant... but I really hope you can put yourself in the position of the tiny few of us who really liked your previous platform partially because it was /local/ information and we got to suffer with the various plugins that came and went (and caused slow-downs or crashes that I'm sure frustrated you since it wasn't your fault) but it was up to us to keep it running to our preference. With the exception of dependence on you if we had to reinstall - a handcuff model that, while understandable to avoid piracy, is an offense in itself.

So... is ST-Mobi more powerful or capable than Strava (without plugins / add-ons)? Absolutely. If forced to choose an online-only platform, ST-Mobi would be a good choice for various reasons. But to pretend that Strava is to be concerned about because you are at the whims of the developers / owners to change the platform at will - potentially in ways we don't want? Uh... do you see it now? C'mon... you have to see that?

[admin]

@gregorx was that directed to my comments about Strava or someone else?

Are you suggesting that people relying on stravistix, or elevate, or veloviewer, or others should not be informed that those are totally reliant on Stravas API terms of service? That explicitly prohibits features that are competitive? When 3 weeks ago they they just terminated an app that had been around for 3 years? Even if you are ok taking that risk it seems irresponsible to not mention it if others arent aware. I advocate letting people make informed choices.

SportTracks isnt built on Strava at all so this issue just doesn't apply. Beyond infrastructure and info sources such as weather and maps (which we pay for) our platform is limited to open source tools and necessary vendor device integrations, using industry standard formats such as FIT files. None of our solution relies on Strava. I imagine its the same with Golden Cheetah, MyTourBook, and competitors such as Training Peaks. Its simply a totally different scenario with these addon Strava plugins.

[gregoryx]

Typing @admin seems weird. Not sure your name?

Anyway... I'm agreeing with you that all the tools reliant on the Strava API are at risk. 100% agreement.

I think you're either intentionally or unintentionally missing / ignoring the idea that a person depending on a product they have zero control over (all online tools) is inherently different than a tool they have locally available to them - that could potentially work exactly as it does today even in many years' time if one is willing to go through the hoops to keep it working. Are you intentionally or unintentionally missing that point?

And I think you've drunk your own Kool-Aid in assuring us that "we're 100% backed up" is somehow the same as the above user-controlled-data situation. So in the you-have-no-control world, ST-Mobi is pretty much the same as Strava. Sure, the API issues make it more likely (proven, I'd say) that those functions will cease to work whenever Strava decides to make it so. Again, we're in 100% agreement of the issues of the API making the user at-the-mercy of Strava and their choices. Can you see that ST-Mobi is the same as Strava? In the sense that the users are at the mercy of the company - whether features, data control, API, etc - there is no difference between ST-Mobi and Strava. Except your assurance that you're using tools and standards that you'll continue to use. Can you /please/ see that your assurance is well intended but would be irresponsible to trust at this point?

To your point about the local-run alternatives, they'd be the same risk-level (and control-level) as ST3 /IF/ you didn't have the license handcuff on us. Since you do...

<off soap-box>

FTR, I appreciate you engaging in this discussion. I hope to have you see this from others (my ) perspective as well as your own. I don't expect you to change your mind or direction. I've run businesses for almost 30 years now. I've killed products that my clients loved because it was the right thing for the company to do. I get it. But I also see things from my clients' perspective - and acknowledge their displeasure and disappointment with respect; while offering the back-end business reasons that this is the direction we're going. Some of them are still clients; some left, which we knew was the risk in killing that product-set. I'd like to think we have a respectful relationship in both cases.

[admin]

Ok. I understand now. This is totally unrelated to the Strava addons issue.

If you're against managed software philosophically... or have the skills and time and interest in maintaining software... or simply disagree with software licensing period and prioritize that over any features you might use - I would recommend looking at one of the free open source options mentioned above.

[gregoryx]

Yup. I'm on it.

I'd personally prefer to pay you regularly to keep the software working; I'm not a fan of open-source or free-ware or even just-pay-once old stuff because this is exactly what happens with it. I vote for things with my wallet; and I'm not cheap about it. (My wife reminds me regularly that my spending habits are out of control. )

My guess is that you don't use the Mobi product the way a few of us use ST3, so it will likely never make sense to you why we don't like - let alone prefer - your ST-Mobi implementation.

There's a handful of things that don't work as well (maybe don't work well at all):
- reporting / searching for data is inferior (try finding things when you have a vague idea... ST3 works);
- updating / interacting is slow and inferior (try changing and updating 3-4 activities in ST3 vs Mobi - or joining 4 activites);
- equipment tracking (and reporting and searching) is weak by comparison (especially sets);
- analysis is inferior to the myriad (messy as they are) plugins;
- export in bulk isn't an option (necessary for external analysis tools such as GC).

Yeah... I'm going to miss ST3. If you'd just kill the license problem, I'd keep the tool. And I'd keep Mobi as well - just to give me the best-of-both-worlds that I have now. And if ST3 stops syncing with Mobi, then I'd get rid of Mobi, since there's no way to import/export to keep them in sync. But today, ST3 is my HUB for things - I tune the data in ST3 then send it out to Strava / GC / Runkeeper / whatever for social or analysis or whatever. I'm going to miss it; and it's going to be a pain to re-create that functionality with MTB or whatever.


Something else to think about: Strava may be screwing their developers as they change and limit the API interaction; but that's a development model followed by many online product sets. Having a non-API (and non-export) solution and standing tall on "our is better" is not really the best way to serve the users.

[admin]

My guess is that you don't use the Mobi product the way a few of us use ST3, so it will likely never make sense to you

Yup. I simply can't agree with your subjective conclusions at all. ST3 has looked terribly slow, clunky and feature limited for 3+ years now compared to the SportTracks app. It explains the number of customers that migrated over.

Having a non-API (and non-export) solution and standing tall on "our is better" is not really the best way to serve the users.

Agreed. My and others preferred option would be for Strava to offer a data API with terms such as that SportTracks does - our API is essentially totally free and open to all as developers choose, as long as they receive user consent to data. I don't know why you got the impression I suggested Strava should remove their API.

[ACree]

My guess is that you don't use the Mobi product the way a few of us use ST3, so it will likely never make sense to you

Yup. I simply can't agree with your subjective conclusions at all. ST3 has looked terribly slow, clunky and feature limited for 3+ years now compared to the SportTracks app. It explains the number of customers that migrated over.

Having a non-API (and non-export) solution and standing tall on "our is better" is not really the best way to serve the users.

Agreed. My and others preferred option would be for Strava to offer a data API with terms such as that SportTracks does - our API is essentially totally free and open to all as developers choose, as long as they receive user consent to data. I don't know why you got the impression I suggested Strava should remove their API.

admin, I'd like whatever drugs you're on. ST3 slows down with large databases, yes. Beyond that, everything about it is faster. ESPECIALLY editing activities. This is my biggest complaint about .mobi, it takes way more clicks to simply edit activity type, location, and equipment used. If you think .mobi has more features than ST3, then you are not using it in the manner that your customers do.

I don't know whether to be impressed that you engage in these conversations or disappointed that you're so tone deaf to your own customers.

[gregoryx]

admin, I'd like whatever drugs you're on. ST3 slows down with large databases, yes. Beyond that, everything about it is faster. ESPECIALLY editing activities. This is my biggest complaint about .mobi, it takes way more clicks to simply edit activity type, location, and equipment used. If you think .mobi has more features than ST3, then you are not using it in the manner that your customers do.

I don't know whether to be impressed that you engage in these conversations or disappointed that you're so tone deaf to your own customers.

Sadly, I agree. On all points. Especially the last one... I'm getting disappointed at the intentional disregard of some questions and feedback.

I realize that I am in an ever-increasing minority that doesn't like the single-record nature of most web-interfaces and mobile apps. But viewing with active editing of more of a spreadsheet-like model is superior if you actively work with the data. But... I'm the minority now; so I get that. Best of luck with Mobi. And I'll still keep pressing you to release a non-crippled version before you quit.

[Debora Romney]

Same as many, i only pay for the Mobi subscription so i can sync automatically to ST3.

After a few years using Trainingpeaks, i had gone back to ST3 last year after trying other alternatives, simply because i was annoyed with the entire TP attitude to data. While the Mobi interface is a 'fun' morning check-in after over six months working with the Health charts I simply dont trust them much at all. A plot of hours swim/bike/run training pretty much tells me the same thing - yes, some efforts are hard and some easy, but over a week i have a balance of hard/easy efforts anyway and so my hours per week chart pretty much is identical to my Health chart while the TSS metrics on ST3 are far more intuitive and i can trust them.

There are other free alternatives to Mobi that offer everything and more that I require and use other than the PC ownership of the data, and, the TSS calculation. Golden Cheetah will give me both at no cost, but, i will probably just accept that data ownerhip is a chore and go back to Traininpeaks despite the higher annual cost.

[dobovedo]

Spent quite a bit of time reading thru this thread. I've been on ST3 for so long I can't remember when I first purchased (donated). I had no doubt this was coming, eventually, since mobi was first announced. I tried mobi a few times and never bought in... it simply wasn't as good. I won't bother listing all the ways... anyone still paying attention to this forum a) already knows and b) probably already said in previous comments.

About six months ago I gave mobi another try... and I stuck with it. Why? Because, as I said, the writing was on the wall. ST3 was eventually going to get dumped. I wasn't sure when, but I was sure. And here we are.

I haven't found an alternative to ST3 that I like, either hosted online or desktop. I do use Strava but it doesn't have all my history, nor do I want it to. Strava is more about the social aspect for me, not about workout history and analysis.

So I keep plugging along with mobi. I got all my history uploaded into it and verified the workout totals matched (Cloud Sync missed about 3-5% of workouts in some really weird random ways)

And you know what I discovered? It has improved over time, and I dare say it's getting close to at least being "good enough". The feature set is getting robust enough to cover all the gaping holes it was missing (elevation correction, trim/split activities were a couple HUGE ones).

However, there's one more MAJOR problem with mobi, and that is the lack of a most basic feature - showing MOVING TIME vs TOTAL TIME.

I am a casual "athlete". (Hell, at 50 years old, with multiple heart procedures, injuries and back surgeries in recent history, I'm not "athletic" so much as merely "active" enough to try and keep myself above ground as long as possible )

A significant number of my activities include brewery or pub stops, either before, after or during runs or rides. Even if I don't stop for a beer or three, I often do a bike ride to a run group, run the route, and ride home. Or I do urban walks or photography hikes, again with multiple stops. I leave my GPS running from start to finish on these types of activities because I'm too lazy and/or forgetful to start/stop it reliably. Why should I?! One of the best features of ST3 is the ability not only to calculate moving time as distinct from stopped time, but to customize the tolerance by activity category (either pace or speed). I've got my walking, photo hiking, road running, trail running, MTB and road riding categories all set differently, dialed in exactly how I like them.

Maybe this doesn't mean anything to you "real" athletes, but if mobi would just get this one additional feature in place, I'd be quite content.

At this point all I can do is hope that mobi continues to mature and the feature set keeps improving, especially calculating my damned moving time.

(and quite honestly, if ST3 is going to die, let it die swiftly so it doesn't keep draining Z5 resources)

Given that I've been thru this kind of data transition a half dozen times over the past few decades, I have no doubt that at some point mobi will also go bye-bye and I'll have to go thru some nightmare scenario of trying to get all my data into yet another system - but hopefully by that time I'll be too old, slow and grumpy to give a flying fuck.

Not sure where I intended to go with any of this, except to say so long ST3... was nice havin' ya around for so many years.

ADMIN - MOVING TIME!!!! GET ON IT!!!!

(oh, one other upside of this... my laptop is about to die and I'll be replacing it soon... and I won't have to bother putting ST3 on the new one)

[gregoryx]

Fully cracking me up, @dobovedo, with looking for moving time because you stopped to have some beers.

I would have never noticed that difference in the two. I had noticed the previous lack of joining activities (since added to Mobi) because I do stop/start-new for track intervals to leave out the in-between rests. Then I join the group of them together for one activity. So cracking me up with the mid-activity activity and reminding me there's always more than one way to solve a problem.

I'm resigned to where we stand at this point as well. I'm doing dual-entry on ST3 and MTB now to find any missing elements between the two and figure out how to do them / get around them / have them added to MTB. So far, so good: looks like a couple of developers are stepping up and adding things to MTB to meet ex-ST3 user expectations. I'm optimistic.

Much as I loved the Mobi web-view for summary stuff, I'll adapt with Strava or something else. I never did activity entry or much editing in Mobi since it's just not as good (for an old-school geek, anyway).

But I do take exception to your expectations for your age. But with the medical stuff, I'm glad you're still at it.

Cheers!

[clonk]

I saw a couple of mentions here of the Garmin Communicator Plugin, which stopped working recently. (My last successful download through the plugin was April 21.)

Fortunately, there seem to be some workarounds.

For newer watches like my Forerunner 920XT, you can use the file download method: http://www.zonefivesoftware.com/sporttracks/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=18090&p=93711&sid=b533a7cf92360098f6e17dae21c1eeff#p93711

For older watches, you may be able to use USB download, as outlined in the same thread.

I'd been using the plugin with my old watch, and it continued working with my 920XT until this week. I never found a clear description of how to download from the 920XT the "correct" way, but it's no too bad.

For me, the ST3 "Select data to import" window shows nothing under "My Computer", so I had to figure out that "d:\GARMIN\ACTIVITY" was the correct spot and type it in. After that, smooth sailing.

Maybe the Garmin Communicator Plugin was supposed to have died long ago, as some have said, or maybe it'll be back next Tuesday, but at least there may some workable alternatives for now.

[admin]

However, there's one more MAJOR problem with mobi, and that is the lack of a most basic feature - showing MOVING TIME vs TOTAL TIME.

There's been a customer request for moving time for three years or so you can find here:

https://sporttracks.uservoice.com/forum ... -time-only

You're encouraged to vote for that idea if you want to see it in the product - most of our prioritization comes from customer feedback.

We've been monitoring the issue for popularity. But shocking even to us it hasn't been terribly popular with our users. So it hasn't yet popped up in priority compared to others. Until recently it was trending about 1 to 20 in user priority versus other ideas that we implemented instead. Both devices and user experience has evolved in the last 10 years from how people used the tech in the early days, which probably accounts for this priority choice.

So it's on our radar, but behind other more important ideas.

[Liquidmantis]

Same as many, i only pay for the Mobi subscription so i can sync automatically to ST3.

I'm one of those users, too. Really sad to see the death of ST desktop. I use it extensively for equipment tracking across various bikes to keep on top of maintenance, and for comparison of efforts on the same trails over time. My Mobi sub expired today and I have no reason to renew now.

[fishyweb]

I'm very disappointed with the decision to sunset this software. I've been using it for what must be 14-15 years and there is no comparable solution out there AFAICS. I personally dislike subscription model software so am highly unlikely to migrate to .mobi.

Maybe I've missed something, but I've not seen any specific confirmation of whether ST3 will cease to work next April (does it phone home to the licence server?), or whether it will continue to work for as long as the 3rd party interfaces remain unchanged (or your PC blows up). Does anyone have any definitive information on that?

I'd like to add my voice to those calling you the code to be made open source, or for the licence dependencies to be removed. That would at least show some respect to those that have been loyal to the platform over the years, whether as users or as independent plugin authors. I'd be willing to pay a 1-time fee for perpetual use, if that's what it takes. Admin, please could you comment on whether there is a prospect that this might happen?

[admin]

Maybe I've missed something, but I've not seen any specific confirmation of whether ST3 will cease to work next April

The ST3 Windows PC app will end-of-life on March 31, 2020. You can find the announcement details here: ST3 End of Life Notification. At this time we do not intend to offer licenses to any native Windows software after that date. After March 31, 2020 you should not expect the software to continue to operate.

If you have important fitness history you want to keep you must make plans to migrate that data to another solution in the next 11 months before end-of-life.

1. You can use the TCX Export plugin to export your workout history in a format that is compatible with many other apps: TCX Export Plugin.
2. If you decide to stay with SportTracks, the migration is simple and easy with a few clicks using the ST3 Cloud Sync feature to sync to your online SportTracks account: ST3 Cloud Sync to SportTracks

If your top priority is a free + open source app you can find many adequate suggestions in the previous pages on this post, both PC-based and online.

I'm glad we've been able to provide you a useful tool for so long!

[WadiaSoft]

A while back I wrote a plugin for SportTracks to summarize my runs.
I enter this in the Notes:
Planned 9. Legs haven't felt that fresh at the start in forever. #SUMMARY# -3.3lbs.

and end up with this:
Planned 9. Legs haven't felt that fresh at the start in forever. 10.20 @ 10:17 1:45:04 HR 120.9 bpm HR [0]:41 [1]:43 [6304]:124 [6305]:124 CAD 174.1 spm Avg. Strd. Len. 0.90 m GCT 267.6 ms Vert Osc 6.6 cm TE 2.7 Cal 1028 43.6 F T1 69.5 F T2 67.3 F 5/2/2019 6:32:33 AM. -3.3lbs.

I have no intentions of renewing SportTracks.mobi.

[Rob Holtman]

I use ST3 mainly for planning my rides and upload them on my Garmin Edge. I suspect did isn't possible after EOL of ST3 because the software seize to be functioning. What is the best software (online) that can just do that ? That I lose all my data after EOL of ST3 I can live with that. The basic data I keep in a spreadsheet.

[admin]

A while back I wrote a plugin for SportTracks to summarize my runs.
I enter this in the Notes:
Planned 9. Legs haven't felt that fresh at the start in forever. #SUMMARY# -3.3lbs.

and end up with this:
Planned 9. Legs haven't felt that fresh at the start in forever. 10.20 @ 10:17 1:45:04 HR 120.9 bpm HR [0]:41 [1]:43 [6304]:124 [6305]:124 CAD 174.1 spm Avg. Strd. Len. 0.90 m GCT 267.6 ms Vert Osc 6.6 cm TE 2.7 Cal 1028 43.6 F T1 69.5 F T2 67.3 F 5/2/2019 6:32:33 AM. -3.3lbs.

I have no intentions of renewing SportTracks.mobi.

Yes! We have a few customers that have developed custom hacks through the SportTracks website API or even chrome extensions - all the data is there in the detail page, check the "SportTracks" object on the window context in your browser debugger to see the info. Pretty easy to do to add reporting info like this.