Mean-max

by mechgt

Downloads: 4,746 (4) • Reviews: 0

Version:

1.2

Updated:

Jul 17, 2011

Mean-Max Explanation

Mean-Max Explanation

Postby mechgt » Fri Feb 05, 2010 8:59 pm

Mean-Max Explanation:

The mean max chart is defined as this: The maximum average power/HR/cadence (Y-axis) that you could hold for a period of time (X-axis). This is from 1 peak instance in the activity, sort of like max HR: you may have hit your max HR only 1 time; likewise you may have only held this power/HR/cadence 1 time.

See the example chart below:

Image

This is often looked at for power analysis... the maximum amount of time that you can sustain X watts. Here you can find your '5 second power', or '20 minute power', etc. Sometimes people call this CP5s or CP20min for '5 second Critical Power' etc. Power analysis was the driving force behind this chart.

In the above example, you'll see 700 watts was held for about 10 seconds, and 300 watts was held for about 400 seconds (or 6-7 minutes). You'll notice that the X-axis is logarithmic... the first tic mark is 0:10, leading to 20, 30, 40sec. etc. The the next major tic is 1:40 or 100 seconds, leading to 200, 300, 400 seconds. The next tick leads to multiples of 1000, etc.

I'm unsure as to the importance of HR with respect to this chart, applying HR to this chart is a little new to me, but essentially it's the same concept: Maximum amount of time that you could sustain X average HR.

Cadence may really irrelevant here, but I included it because someone might like it if they're trying to do high-cadence intervals on a trainer or something (and it was really easy to include.)

Sorry the display is slow at the moment, there are lots of calculations that go into this, and I plan to look at what I can do to speed it up; so in the meantime bear with me.
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Postby 7270martin » Sun Feb 07, 2010 12:05 pm

Great, a very nice plugin!

Some remarks:

When selecting 'mean maximum', the graph is displayed. However, the title of the graph window is 'training load'.

Would be cool if all graphs (hr and power and maybe cadence) could be displayd at the same time in one chart, best probably without shading.

When clicking on the line, there is a tooltip showing the amount of seconds. For longer periods (several minutes), it would help if the tooltip would show minutes and seconds.

It would be especially cool, if some parts of the chart could be selected, and the corresponding part of the map would be selected as well.

What about displaying the average of the whole activity as a horizontal line. Maybe in addition also the standard variation (horizontal lines above and below the average).
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Postby Stumpjumper68 » Sun Feb 21, 2010 5:31 pm

Hi mechgt,

mean-max charts and values are calculated always to high.

For example my workout was 32 min 45 s HR 167 but
mean_max shows 32 min 40 s at HR 177.
Same findings on power and cadence.
It was a workout on I-Magic trainer at 1 sec. recording
Image
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Postby mechgt » Mon Feb 22, 2010 9:17 pm

Thanks for the feedback. I'll investigate.
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Postby Stumpjumper68 » Sun Feb 28, 2010 5:49 pm

Today I found the other way around. ST power shows 16.05 min power over 200 Watt but meanmax gave me only 5.40 min :?: Cadence and HR charts on that activity shows reasonable values.

Antoher issue is that MM doesn't show more than 59.56 min. All graphs end at 59.56 min (if the activity is longer than an hour).
Image
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Postby mechgt » Sun Feb 28, 2010 6:49 pm

1) You were absolutely right and the data wasn't displaying properly. The calculated values aren't 'aligned' with the right time values. Will be fixed in the next build, thanks for paying attention to this detail and reporting!

2) Display stops at 1 hour: This is right. I did this simply because the long durations is what takes sooooo long to calculate. In other words, the 10 second values calculate really quick, but the 30 minute values take longer, and 1 hour takes even longer (something like 10 seconds for 1 data point!). I figure that 1 hour was a reasonable compromise between data display and something that already takes too long to calculate. If I can figure out how to shorten it, then I'll extend it, but that's the reason why.
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Postby texmurphy » Sun Feb 28, 2010 8:33 pm

Using the Training Plugin Power Info screen, I can get various CP(Time) values for activities. Although I don't know how the Training Plugin selects which parts of an activity to report for CP.

However I think the MeanMax should not report values significantly less then Power Info. If Power Info finds a high value for say CP20, then MeanMax should also report the same. Maybe different treatment of pauses or zeroes?
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Postby mechgt » Sun Feb 28, 2010 9:45 pm

I don't know the PowerInfo algorithm. I'm using SportTracks smoothing algorithm and taking the max value reported for that. The PowerInfo has been around a long time, but is a valid benchmark simply because it's been here for a while or can we manually prove one is right over the other? Not trying to battle PowerInfo, just looking for the right answer.

Here's how my algo works:
Take 30 sec. for example: Smooth the entire activity using 30 second constant: This creates a 30 second rolling average, i.e. each data point will reflect the average value of the adjacent 30 seconds (15 sec. on each side). From this, I take the max value. It should reflect the highest 30 seconds in the activity.

I use the full raw data track... no pausing or stopping... etc. Maybe I can add that later, but can you do that in a race? :) Seems like that might be cheating.

I've done some manual testing via Excel and it seems to agree with my manual calcs. Please note that you'll need to evaluate with at least version 1.4.4 where some of the data is fixed as noted in a post above.
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Postby Stumpjumper68 » Sun Mar 07, 2010 4:27 pm

I still get to high numbers with 1.44, but found it just on activities which are less than 1 hour. On longer turns it seems to work OK.
Is it possible that always MM calculate something over 60 minutes?
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Postby mechgt » Sun Mar 07, 2010 8:06 pm

Stumpjumper68 wrote:I still get to high numbers with 1.44, but found it just on activities which are less than 1 hour. On longer turns it seems to work OK.
Is it possible that always MM calculate something over 60 minutes?


Send me an export of an activity, and tell me specifically what's wrong with it and I'll take a look at it.
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Postby clackerz » Tue Aug 31, 2010 2:47 pm

When using the reports section and group by say date if I select on one of the groups I don't get a graph of the activities within that group - I need to expand and select the activities.

Is there anyway that it can be changed so the group-by can be used as the selectable?
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Postby mechgt » Tue Aug 31, 2010 7:59 pm

Yeah, I've planned that for a future release. Not done yet, but I agree with you and it's on the TODO list.
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Postby clackerz » Tue Aug 31, 2010 8:49 pm

mechgt wrote:Yeah, I've planned that for a future release. Not done yet, but I agree with you and it's on the TODO list.


No probs will await the release....
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Postby mechgt » Thu Oct 07, 2010 12:09 am

New version posted: v1.0
Details and explaination (with screenshots, etc) can be seen here:
http://www.zonefivesoftware.com/sporttr ... php?id=161

The most interesting update is that some new charts that were added. As described on the homepage:

...Additional chart lines can be added to the right axis by clicking the 'More Charts' button indicated by the yellow arrow. These values represent the observed average value during the max occurrence. For example, examine the chart below. For the period at 100 seconds (1:40) the maximum power produced was approximately 310 watts. During that effort, cadence was approximately 90 RPM.

Another example as shown in the tooltip: Maximum power produced for 2 seconds was approximately 645 watts (see purple line). During that effort (which occurred at 27:41 from the start of the activity), average cadence was 102 RPM.

Available associated chart lines are Power, Cadence, Heart Rate, and Grade. Note that the associated chart lines are currently only available for singe activity analysis.



Image

Please note that the Reports tab has been removed as the exact same functionality can be achieved with a maximized view of the detail page in reports view.
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Re: Mean-Max Explanation

Postby Thibault » Thu Oct 09, 2014 4:02 pm

Hi,

This is agreat plug! Would it be possible to add Speed as a variable? I think it would be vey useful for running or swimming!

Thanks

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Re: Mean-Max Explanation

Postby rogerpgvg » Fri Oct 10, 2014 4:19 am

I agree. But you can do something a bit similar with the High Score plugin. You can't get the graph though.
highscoregraph.PNG
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Re: Mean-Max Explanation

Postby texmurphy » Fri Oct 10, 2014 12:50 pm

You should also try the Filtered Statistics Pugin which will give chart plus map location results.
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Re: Mean-Max Explanation

Postby the5krunner » Tue Dec 08, 2015 11:10 am

Couple of thoughts

1. is it possible to change the x-axis LABELLING ...it's not quite what I want (I appreciate it's some sort of log, eg 11 sec, 10 sec, 1 min, 5 min, 10 min, 20 min, 30 min, 60 min power)
2. what is people's experience with interpreting HR? the 60 minute HR would be an estimate or validation of LTHR perhaps?
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Re: Mean-Max Explanation

Postby tndmbkr » Thu Dec 10, 2015 4:29 pm

the5krunner wrote:........1. is it possible to change the x-axis LABELLING ...it's not quite what I want (I appreciate it's some sort of log, eg 11 sec, 10 sec, 1 min, 5 min, 10 min, 20 min, 30 min, 60 min power).....
When I go out riding for a structured workout, it is either aerobic capacity intervals (2 min? ), lactate treshold intervals (12 min ?), or aerobic treshold (60 min ?).
I never put the three types together in one workout.
Therefore, strictly speaking, it makes no sense to create a chart for a structured workout with an X-axis from 0 - 90 minutes.
But it makes sense for a Fartlek workout.

Training Analysis plugin produces a similar chart with a linear scale.
Together with the Activity Documentation plugin it is possible to compare ones CPxx between similar activities.

We discussed the usage of MeanMaxchart also in this topic
Unfortunately, the discussion passed away.

the5krunner wrote:.... an estimate or validation of LTHR perhaps?....
LTHR = Lactate Treshold Heart Rate ?
Joe Friel thinks 20 minutes is enough for LTHR.
60 minutes or more, is what it takes to determine your aerobic treshold
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Re: Mean-Max Explanation

Postby the5krunner » Thu Mar 31, 2016 5:48 pm

why does mean-max not work for either speed or pace?
It might be useful when running on the flat for example.
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Re: Mean-Max Explanation

Postby tndmbkr » Sun Apr 03, 2016 3:02 am

I think there is a MeanMax for speed.
AFTER you have converted your speedtrack into a powertrack.
Power Runner plugin by Mechgt will do that for you.

Though I never really used this plugin, because running speed also depends on the weather, the gradient, the surface, ........
And the plugin only asks for elevation and your bodyweight.

Power is input.
Which sometime results in strong output (=high speed), sometimes in low output.
You need a strong correlation between your running speed (=output) and your HR (=input), for a meaningful mean max analysis.
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Re: Mean-Max Explanation

Postby the5krunner » Sun Apr 03, 2016 3:34 am

tndmbkr wrote:I think there is a MeanMax for speed.
AFTER you have converted your speedtrack into a powertrack.
Power Runner plugin by Mechgt will do that for you.

Though I never really used this plugin, because running speed also depends on the weather, the gradient, the surface, ........
And the plugin only asks for elevation and your bodyweight.

Power is input.
Which sometime results in strong output (=high speed), sometimes in low output.
You need a strong correlation between your running speed (=output) and your HR (=input), for a meaningful mean max analysis.


I've used the power running pluging thing and it was not accurate. I have used STRYD too for power and that was plausible.
i'm looking at track/flat pace, so there should be a strong correlation in this instance methinks (of course I will only run on non-windy days when the temperature is the same as last time :-) )
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