Training Load

by mechgt

Downloads: 12,931 (48) • Reviews: 18

Version:

2.0.7

Updated:

Aug 26, 2015

Training Load Plugin

Postby clackerz » Fri Jan 16, 2009 4:33 am

I'm still only scratching the surface here on all the data and info available regarding reading, understanding and analysing the graph in this plugin.

However I'm currently attacking every ride differently and seeing how it affects the outcome.

So I'm sure I'm going to learn alot as I learn to utilise this plugin correctly.
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Postby IanPV » Fri Jan 16, 2009 5:13 am

First things first: respect! Half marathon under 1:30 Cool
What strikes me as odd, is the small changes in TSB. Example: 29.11. where TSB only changed 5 points. If I remember correctly (can't check right now) my TSB changes are much higher.


I think it is because Hennes is using such a long constant in his ATL calculation (21 days). This will mean that really big efforts won't have the same weighting that they would if he was using a shorter duration (say 7-11 days) to calculate ATL.

As for scoring really high on TSS, you should take up cycling :wink: it is a lot easier to ride for 5-6 hours at 75% max HR than it is to run for that length of time I think!
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Postby Switch » Fri Jan 16, 2009 6:10 am

IanPV wrote:I think it is because Hennes is using such a long constant in his ATL calculation (21 days). This will mean that really big efforts won't have the same weighting that they would if he was using a shorter duration (say 7-11 days) to calculate ATL.

Oops :shock:
That ATL-21 might have been a result from one of my postings earlier on in this thread. The desired effect was to get Hennes' taper date three weeks prior to the event. Looking at his settings, this goal was not achieved.

@Hennes: to get to your desired tapering date, three weeks prior to your 1. February event, you should adjust your ATL constant to something like 16.

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Postby Stumpjumper68 » Fri Jan 16, 2009 7:13 am

Hennes wrote:
I wonder why TSS does not go into the upper part of the scale. Ok, its says HIGH at the "1" and at the "2", but I think those were nearly ultimate session as


TSS it's just another description of TRIMP. If you take a look at your full Marathon TRIMP (TSS)it shows 450 to >500 and means epic.

If you would like to get it higher rated you just need to set higher trimp factors :lol: just kidding
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Postby texmurphy » Fri Jan 16, 2009 10:53 am

IanPV wrote:As for scoring really high on TSS, you should take up cycling :wink: it is a lot easier to ride for 5-6 hours at 75% max HR than it is to run for that length of time I think!


HENNES wrote:@mechgt:
BTW: as those numbers in the table and the grey square in bottom right are highly dependend on the user settings, which we are all experimenting with (and changing around all the time) I think it would be a good idea to list the actual settings (ATL CTL) in that grey square, so other people do notice and one can remember self, please - there seems to be enough space. Maybe aditional "data" from settings page, can be displayed there.


Mashup below shows both the "EPIC" effects of cycling and what the Settings info would look like on the TrainingLoad view.
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Postby mechgt » Fri Jan 16, 2009 11:40 am

HENNES wrote:@mechgt:
BTW: as those numbers in the table and the grey square in bottom right are highly dependend on the user settings, which we are all experimenting with (and changing around all the time) I think it would be a good idea to list the actual settings (ATL CTL) in that grey square, so other people do notice and one can remember self, please - there seems to be enough space. Maybe aditional "data" from settings page, can be displayed there.

texmurphy wrote:Mashup below shows both the "EPIC" effects of cycling and what the Settings info would look like on the TrainingLoad view.

Nice!!! That's pretty sweet, like the idea. I'll get that in there when I get a moment.
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Postby texmurphy » Fri Jan 16, 2009 11:51 am

mechgt wrote:Nice!!! That's pretty sweet, like the idea. I'll get that in there when I get a moment.


I should have spent a little more effort and added the Accumulated distance graph to the chart window :wink:
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Postby mechgt » Fri Jan 16, 2009 12:00 pm

ildibad wrote:problem report :

- while creating future events with TRIMP=xxxx , TSB doesn't accrue. (TSB before = 0)

- dynamic zone doesn't work : it is always using "norm" .

I'll be sure to take a look at #1.

What exactly do you mean doesn't work, and what is 'norm'?
- The intention is that the plugin will automatically calculate your factors based on HRresting and HRmax on the activity date. It'll probably look just like the data you had before, except as your HR range moves over time, the factors will drift with it and data from the past will not change. It uses the default factor profile, not anything that you setup manually.

You can test it by:
- turning it on and looking at the TRIMP for a particular event.
- change the previous day's (or whatever the last entry was prior to the activity) for your resting or max HR in the Athlete view
- You should notice that the TRIMP the the activities after the modification date have changed.

NOTE: TL uses LastEntrySince(date) to find HRrest and HRmax if this make my explanation any clearer.
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Postby ildibad » Fri Jan 16, 2009 12:41 pm

@mechgt:

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normaly, Training load should take the last zone (dated 7/12/2008). In fact, it take the other end (norme)

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Here, you can see what happend with the planned training

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Postby mechgt » Fri Jan 16, 2009 1:36 pm

ildibad wrote:@mechgt:
normaly, Training load should take the last zone (dated 7/12/2008). In fact, it take the other end (norme)

Here, you can see what happend with the planned training

thanks for caring

Because you don't have SingleZone checked, TL will use the category associated with the activity. Check Single Zone and then select the category you want to use from the drop-down if you'd like to use a different zone for calculations.

If you're using dynamic Zone Factors, your Single Zone will only be used to define each zone range (Hi and Low heart rate values).
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Postby HENNES » Fri Jan 16, 2009 3:31 pm

texmurphy wrote:Mashup below shows both the "EPIC" effects of cycling and what the Settings info would look like on the TrainingLoad view.


Well done, texmurphy - as usually "a picture tells more than a thousands words from me" :lol:

Looks like we got the boss in good mood (maybe he got some more sleep and less diapers changing)
- and need to push that a bit, so other answers have to wait - sorry to my "analysts" :lol:



Yep, thats was my wish list too - running 30k today I had a bit time to get some ideas so the boss will soon hate me.

So here is Hennes´ wishlist:

1.) As CTL and ATL are the most important settings, how about to superimpose them even on the chart itself - just a top line with the settings will do.


texmurphy wrote:added the Accumulated distance graph to the chart window


2.) Yes +1 thats very important for me also. As described above Im interested in some number like rolling 28d sum of distance, rolling 7-10 day sum of distance. Those need to be configurable.

As for the point of "information overflow": we already have that and we have configurable chart options so we dont see all things at the same time. A thin line representing each of these numbers shouldnt disturb that much. A scale could be put to the left axis as there is space.

As for the point TRIMP is similar information. I can tell much more of my kilometers and especially with using forecast I can see how much I still can add to reach a certain level. This is an important gauge for me to prevent injuries.


3.) Also I would like/need to see that number in the table.


4.) Talking of the table, I realized today, that most tables in STs can be copied (right mouse, COPY) into Excel very very easily. So far that doesnt work here. Maybe it wasnt planned as most stuff can be charted here, but sure some poeple do other stuff with those numbers and a simple copy of those numbers to excel would be great.


5.) Clicking on the chart and hitting a date with an activity selects that activity in the table below - nice - and draws a line down to the date - nice!

Hitting a date where was no activity shows nothing - unfortunately sometimes its not that easy to hit the correct date.

I suggest to allways show the table and not just a single day and highlight that day in the middle of the page if that would be possible.


6.) Clicking on the table hightlights that row nice - but how about that would result also in a marker line on the chart for that very date go up to the indicators?

If we would have that: Now scrolling through the table should move that line through the charts.


7. clicking on a "low number" indicator drops the line to the date, but doesnt "touch" any lines of higher indicators. How about to have that line allways stretch the full window size, so one can easy "eyeball" all lines for that date. Also might be interesting to show that number of other lines for that "line"/date.


Will give you a break now :lol: thanks for considering and hopefully will find some people who support one or the other point here.
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Postby mechgt » Fri Jan 16, 2009 4:26 pm

HENNES wrote:So here is Hennes´ wishlist:

1.) As CTL and ATL are the most important settings, how about to superimpose them even on the chart

I think I can get them on there somewhere. I'll find somewhere the looks nice. Might be that little panel in the bottom right.
HENNES wrote:
texmurphy wrote:added the Accumulated distance graph to the chart window


2.) Yes +1 thats very important for me also... rolling 28d sum of distance, rolling 7-10 day sum of distance. Those need to be configurable... A scale could be put to the left axis as there is space.

3.) Also I would like/need to see that number in the table.

I hadn't forgotten about you here... I'll see if I can't come up with something on this. Can't do the left axis though, think you can only have 1 of those as far as I can tell. Just one of those things.

Anything that gets charted can/will be made available on the table.

HENNES wrote:4.) ...most tables in STs can be copied (right mouse, COPY) into Excel very very easily...

I'll have to look at how to do this. I think I can figure that one out, and it'd be good enhancement.
EDIT: COMPLETE
HENNES wrote:5.) Clicking on the chart and hitting a date with an activity selects that activity in the table below...I suggest to allways show the table and not just a single day and highlight that day in the middle of the page if that would be possible.

The intention here was if you select a range of activities, that range is shown in the table below, and that's going to stay the same.

However I can change it to where if you select a single activity, the 'highlight' just goes to that activity, rather than filtering all the others out. Sounds like a good idea to me.
EDIT: Looked at it, and this will not happen in the near future.
HENNES wrote:6.) Clicking on the table hightlights that row nice - but how about that would result also in a marker line on the chart for that very date go up to the indicators?

7. clicking on a "low number" indicator drops the line to the date, but doesnt "touch" any lines of higher indicators...

I think it'll be difficult to highlight the chart from selections made on the table, and sliding the chart around sounds a little confusing.

On #7 though, I didn't even notice this... I'll see if I can figure out why this chart doesn't highlight all of the data points in a vertical 'slice' of the chart.
EDIT: Looked at this, and still have no idea why it's different, but it is.
Last edited by mechgt on Thu Jan 22, 2009 1:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby gerhard » Fri Jan 16, 2009 5:33 pm

smaryka wrote:Apologies for the long-winded post, but I thought I should chime in with what I've been reading about Intensity Factors for calcuting TSS.
.....
Hope this makes sense for people (and I hope I've done the math right! But I did check my results against some 5k running races and 1 hour cycling races and the calcuated TSS scores seem to make sense).


Really good post!
I have a similar feeling but have not enough good activities to compare for a high confidence answer. It is one thing to compare two cycle rides done in a certain way to comparing a cycle training and similar length run - I do them too differently.
A friend of mine (that is into triathlon, I am primarily a runner that bikes occasionally) and me agreed that since running is constantly bouncing it takes more effort from a all out run than a similar length all out cycling race. The developer of rTSS (Steve McGregor) does not agree though (as in your links).
rTSS is using normalized graded pace, similar to TSS for biking and GOVSS, not TRIMP, but the situation seem to be similar: Effect from running seems to be underestimated.

I like the "single zone", minimizing the corner cases but not bloating all other zone views.
It would be useful to apply factors to each category. Not so simple as a single setting though.

Side note: the plugin calculates Normalized Power. Normalized Graded Pace would be interesting. GPS2Power calculates some kind of "running average" and GOVSS (see physfarm.com) gives some kind of running score. WKO+ users seem relative satisfied, it would be interesting to have something similar in ST.
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Postby HENNES » Sat Jan 17, 2009 1:39 am

HENNES wrote:Will give you a break now :lol: thanks for considering and hopefully will find some people who support one or the other point here.


Forgot 2 important things, Ill quickly like to add: ( I should start to a take NOTES during running)

- NOTES should be available in the table, as lots of people have important infos in there, e.g. some session was a RACE etc. If that would be available we could also sort for that and compare all "10k race" or "Half-Marathon" if we put that label into the NOTES. I think a good enhancement!

- While we agee to show the ATL CTL number in the bottom right corner, why dont we move the very input box for those 2 down there? Reason: we could easily adjust the number and see immedeately the outcome on the chart above. So far we have to flip back and forth to the settings page.

Who says settings must be on the settings page :lol:

I think that would be a nice improvement too!

thanks for considerung and for your positive comments on other "wishes", coming back to the previous stuff later....
rgds hennes
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Postby clackerz » Sat Jan 17, 2009 3:45 am

HENNES wrote:Who says settings must be on the settings page :lol:

I think that would be a nice improvement too!

thanks for considerung and for your positive comments on other "wishes", coming back to the previous stuff later....


I agree. I'm finding myself flipping backwards and forwards when changing settings etc to see how it affects the outcome.

This would be a great enhancement to the plugin
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Practical use of the TL plugin

Postby Switch » Sun Jan 18, 2009 2:35 pm

So,

now that this wonderful plugin has motivated me to train more, and this has nicely kicked up my CTL, does anybody have any tips how to keep CTL high while bringing down ATL thus maximising TSB?

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Re: Practical use of the TL plugin

Postby smaryka » Sun Jan 18, 2009 4:41 pm

Switch wrote:So,now that this wonderful plugin has motivated me to train more, and this has nicely kicked up my CTL, does anybody have any tips how to keep CTL high while bringing down ATL thus maximising TSB?


That's called "tapering"! :wink:

Seriously though, you need to stress your body on a regular basis (ATL) in order to make it stronger. Your CTL will drop like a stone within a few weeks after you drop your ATL. Even a good taper for a big event involves "losing" some fitness. But most pros would agree that going into an event 10% undertrained is better than going in 1% overtrained.

And speaking of overtraining, this is a common problem a lot of people have -- having a very high ATL for too long without allowing it to come down from time to time. The trick to getting the most out of your training (high CTL) without overtraining (high ATL) is to recover properly from high-stress exercises.

Recovery includes eating properly (recovery drink with carbs and protein within 30 min after a workout, then a full meal within 2 hours after that). Also it means taking recovery days and/or weeks, getting enough sleep, and keeping the other stresses in your life under control. And just listening to your body when it's tired, not pushing yourself too far beyond what it's capable of.

A lot of triathlon training programmes prescribe a 4-week cycle which consists of a 3-week build followed by a 4th week in which intensity and volume of training drops drastically (a recovery week). This will give your body a natural ATL rise then recovery every month, meaning you start the following cycle refreshed with a nice TSB, and ready to stress your body again.

Personally I favour the easy-day/hard-day system where I do about 3 hard workouts a week spaced out by 36 hours or more if possible (a hard workout for is a run of 90 min or more, a ride of 3 hours or more, intervals with high HR, and threshold work) All my other workouts are done at an "easy" pace. Most of the work in the hard workouts is done near my threshold (zone 4/5 HR or 85-90% of max HR) but my easy days are "extensive endurance" (zone 1/2 or 60-75% of max HR).

What that means is that my workouts either feel really hard or really easy! But I am flexible with this system, and will move my workouts around in the week if I feel like a day that was supposed to be easy was too hard, or vice versa. And I am not afraid to take entire days off if that's what I need to do to feel well. I also take my taper very seriously, dropping volume up to 3 weeks before a big race but maintaining some intensity to stay sharp and fresh.

NB: I'm a lifelong athlete and currently training for an Ironman triathlon with the goal of qualifying for the world champtionships in Hawaii. I've built up my endurance and training stress and self-knowledge over years of training. For example, what I know about myself is that I can cycle hundreds of miles in a week and swim every day, but when I run more than 40 miles/week for more than a few weeks, I risk injury and overtraining.

So the most important advice I can give regarding ATL/CTL balance and training stress is to know yourself as well as you can -- find your limits and do your best to sit on that edge without going over. Start slowly and build up your volume and intensity. And if you start to feel even the least bit overtrained, back off immediately and reassess where you are. The world is full of overtrained, burned-out athletes who mindlessly followed a training schedule, put their ATL at a dangerously high level, then crashed and needed months before they could feel normal again. :(

(I'm currently going through my old hand-written training logbooks and inputting the information into ST so I can see how my TL looks -- a tedious but really useful exercise!)
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Postby clackerz » Mon Jan 19, 2009 4:26 am

Great post - full of good tips - alot of 'common sense' when training....

It is real easy to just keep pushing yourself and 'not to be weak'.
Recovery (and knowing when)should be an integral part of training.

I've found (after bit of research and trial and error) that food can seriously have a big impact on training and recovery.
I haven't changed my diet alot - but more about what I eat when. Both pre and post riding.

And mix it up a little - you can easily get bored - doing the same regime week in and week out.
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Postby Switch » Mon Jan 19, 2009 4:44 am

clackerz wrote:Great post - full of good tips - alot of 'common sense' when training....

That's it, I am going to take it easy today, and maybe not do anything at all.

clackerz wrote:And mix it up a little - you can easily get bored - doing the same regime week in and week out.

This reminded me of an answer from one of my friends to my question: what music do you listen to when training? "If you need music, you should vary your training more!"
I think he was right.
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Postby clackerz » Mon Jan 19, 2009 5:59 am

Switch wrote:This reminded me of an answer from one of my friends to my question: what music do you listen to when training? "If you need music, you should vary your training more!"
I think he was right.


This one is one of those 'personal' things I think.

I used to always train with music. I felt that I trained 'harder' when listening to my music.
But when I stopped using the iPod I found that I wasn't actually concentrating on my technique, my breathing etc - more importantly the environment (traffic, road hazards etc) - even to the noises of my bike - the warning signs of wear 'n' tear.

I do now restrict using my iPod to either recovery rides, the indoor trainer (with Spinervals), or sometimes solo running.
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Postby clackerz » Wed Jan 21, 2009 5:51 am

A small bug here - more of a nuisance than anything.


When I select a date range on the graph I sort the date column in ascending order.

However when I change my selection to view another series of dates, the sort changes back to descendng, but the sort arrow on the date header remains as ascending.

I need to click the date column twice to revert back to ascending.
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Postby mechgt » Wed Jan 21, 2009 10:14 am

clackerz wrote:When I select a date range on the graph I sort the date column in ascending order.

However when I change my selection to view another series of dates, the sort changes back to descendng, but the sort arrow on the date header remains as ascending.

I need to click the date column twice to revert back to ascending.


Thanks, I'll put it on the list.
EDIT: COMPLETE
Last edited by mechgt on Thu Jan 22, 2009 1:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby ildibad » Wed Jan 21, 2009 3:51 pm

@mechgt


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Did-you find a solution for the planning problem ?
as you can see if trimp is correctly passed to the plugin, neither ctl nor atl are impacted ?
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Postby mechgt » Wed Jan 21, 2009 4:29 pm

ildibad wrote:@mechgt
Did-you find a solution for the planning problem ?
as you can see if trimp is correctly passed to the plugin, neither ctl nor atl are impacted ?


Think I know what's wrong, just need a moment to get it fixed and posted. I'll get it out there as soon as I can get to it.
EDIT: COMPLETE
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Mismatch between calendar and activity list

Postby Switch » Tue Jan 27, 2009 5:58 pm

Something is odd here...
Yesterday, I did not train at all, so there is no activity in ST for monday, 26. january. However, in the calender of the training load view, monday is bold. In the activity list, I see today's activity listed as monday (Day of week), january 27 (Start time). While writing this, I notice the time is indicated as 00:00. After entering the correct time, the calendar is okay, and so is the day of the week.

So you better not start your trainings at 00:00...

So, actually, problem solved, case closed, but it is still odd.

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