Waypoint and Courses

by old_man_biking

Downloads: 1,161 (12) • Reviews: 4

Version:

3.0.6010

Updated:

Jun 15, 2016

2 Questions: Courses navigation and display of courses

2 Questions: Courses navigation and display of courses

Postby Freppa » Tue Apr 03, 2012 2:34 am

Hi!

I've recently began to explore all of Sporttacks functionality together with various plugins, like this fine Waypoint & Courses plugin. I've also recently purchased a Garmin Edge 800, so excuse me if some of these questions are totally n00b... :oops:

Firstly, as I've understood it, waypoints are used as a set of markers on a map to provide turn by turn directions? And courses are more specific to Garmin devices, having a track as well? (For use as a training excercise for Virtual partner).

My first question: for exploring new areas (i.e. not primarily for use of Virtual partner), is there a difference in creating a course or a set of waypoints? I figure if I create a track in Sporttracks I can use it to create a route... Is this the recommended way if the primary goal is to get turn by turn directions for a new route?
(I've also seen that there should be some option for creating heads up warnings some distance before the actual turns prior to sending courses to the Garmin device...)

My second question: the plugin has a setting for which angle a turn should be created. Does this mean that if a road does some kind of a Y-split (with only slight change of direction), this doesn't become an alert for guidance? If so, is there a way around this? Or is it a limitation that have to be accepted?

Edit:
Forgot my third question: I've played around some, creating courses in the plugin from the routes in sporttracks. I've found that I can give the separate courses different colours, and if I select multiple ones in Courses view all of them are displayed in the map view of Routes. :-) This I like, since I can compare the different courses easily. However, depending on what settings I've used I get some turn markers (waypoints? :oops: ) for each course, which are also displayed in the map view. I guess that those are needed for navigation (hence my questions above...), but is there a way of not showing them on the map, since it becomes quite cluttered with all symbols?

Thanks in advance! :-)
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Re: 2 Questions: Courses navigation and display of courses

Postby old_man_biking » Tue Apr 03, 2012 9:12 am

1. method of choice for turn directions on a Garmin edge = course
1. a) head-up warnings: solves an issue with Garmins: they show the turn warning EXACTLY at the turn point; which is nonsense, because that will only tell you which turn you've just missed :)
2. you can always create turns (= course points) manually; the angle in the W&C settings affects the auto turn creation; which will create a "good" set of turn warnings but not always a perfect one
3. course points are ALWAYS displayed; cluttering might happen
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Re: 2 Questions: Courses navigation and display of courses

Postby Freppa » Wed Apr 04, 2012 2:44 pm

Thank you for your quick reply! :-)

I've tried to create a test route/course to understand how it should be done and to learn.

Untitled.jpg
Untitled.jpg (77.52 KiB) Viewed 12505 times


First, I notice that not every corner is marked by a turn (course point?) when the course is created from the route in Sporttracks. (The angle setting in the plugin is set to 55 degrees; at least the very last 90 degree turn should have been marked)

Second, I did manage to manually in the route view add course points for the marked turns in the image. However, I don't know if it is somewhat unstable; multiple times the plugin has generated an error message, saying that something is outside an index. When this happens, the turn numbers (e.g. 1/5, 2/5, 3/5, etc if there are 5 turns) all becomes "0" (0/5, 0/5, 0/5, etc).

I'll try to create courses with your recommended method of using Google to create auto routes, but I have some routes already created in Sporttracks, and would like to make courses out of them in order to transfer them to the GPS.

I also just would like a clarification on the turn warnings: In the list with turn markers, there is a little check box for "Toggle turn warning". Is this the same type of turn warning for export to Garmin devices? (I.e. a notification some time before the actual turn?) If so, does that mean that in order to get one of those remainders, the check box for the particular turn have to be marked, AND, the check box in the options for the plugin have to be activated?
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Re: 2 Questions: Courses navigation and display of courses

Postby old_man_biking » Thu Apr 05, 2012 12:55 am

Regarding your last question: yes.
Did you read the plugin manual at www.sporttracks-plugins.com?
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Re: 2 Questions: Courses navigation and display of courses

Postby Freppa » Thu Apr 05, 2012 2:14 am

Yes, the manual together with your replies have made for a much better understanding. :-)

But one can not only rely on text to learn; that's why I do my best to use your plugin and use this test map to fully understand how to use it.

Regarding the error message: I can not (at the moment at least) fully reproduce and trigger it at will; it has happened some times when I in Route view have added and edited course points for turn directions. When it happened, I've closed Sporttracks without saving, and started over.

But for the other problem, I've tried changing the angle setting in the plugin to 30 degrees. When again creating a course from the route, only the first left turn (far to the right) is recognized together with the two already recognized in the image below: the right/left combo is not, likewise the very last 90 degree right turn.

What is wrong? I've sketched the route very quickly, and perhaps have cut a corner or two: does this matter? I.e. does the route perfectly have to be on roads? (To some degree, the location of the roads do however change a little depending on the map provider used...)

I do appreciate your help and do my best to read manual (rtfm! :-)) and search here on the forum.
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Re: 2 Questions: Courses navigation and display of courses

Postby old_man_biking » Thu Apr 05, 2012 8:39 am

The intermediate turn points have angles below 55°. You can try with a smaller angle in the settings to get more turn points.
Regarding the last point: the plugin looks at some distance BEFORE and AFTER the possible turn point to determine the angle. Possibly that's the cause. For sure that will cause some points to never appear as turn points (in case of zig zags with short legs).
Anyway, as I've said the plugin does a good job, not a perfect job. I've been using it for years myself. I won't start hunting around to find the reason for all non-catches; it's a heuristics not a life-critical function.
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Re: 2 Questions: Courses navigation and display of courses

Postby Freppa » Sat Apr 07, 2012 7:56 am

Once again, I appreciate your help: I'm not trying to criticize your work, I think it's a good plugin. I'm just trying to understand how to use it properly.

As I wrote, I did try to lower the turn angle setting to 30 degrees. But thanks to your explanation, I think we can put the left/right combo also under the same type as the last turn: simply that the leg is to short to make it appear. No big deal, just want to understand the mechanics and what to be aware of.

Which brings me to my (for the moment 8) ) last question:

When I manually want to add points, I go to the 'Route' view of Sporttracks and locate the course. I find that sometimes the mouse cursor doesn't allow me to add points to the course. (Nothing happens when I click anywhere on the course). I can right click and select and edit existing turns, but not add new. I've then changed back and forth between different views (course view, routes view, summary, etc) and at some point got the possibility again to add course points. Does the map view have to be in some specific mode to enable manual addition of course points?
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Re: 2 Questions: Courses navigation and display of courses

Postby old_man_biking » Sat Apr 07, 2012 8:00 am

No it need not. It might be that the course point creation is a bit picky when you click in the middle of a vertex, far away from a gps point.
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Re: 2 Questions: Courses navigation and display of courses

Postby Freppa » Tue Apr 24, 2012 3:20 pm

I think I've found a cause for the problem of often not being able to add new course points in the map window of ST. It has something to do with the currently chosen background map (e.g. Google, OSM, terrain, etc). When I choose 'none', there are no problems adding extra course points.

I don't know if this is either a feature (:P) or bug of Sporttracks or the Courses plugin, but I thought I should tell. Since I don't generally add so many extra course points, there's no problem switching the background map off and adding the points. :)
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Re: 2 Questions: Courses navigation and display of courses

Postby old_man_biking » Tue Apr 24, 2012 3:50 pm

I've observed similar problems with the Google based maps (Street, Satellite, ...) when adding WAYPOINTS before.
The waypoint isn't visible - although it's been created. It's a display issue. It didn't occur with the OSM based maps.
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Re: 2 Questions: Courses navigation and display of courses

Postby Tisztul_A_Visztula » Wed Aug 28, 2013 2:23 pm

old_man_biking wrote:The intermediate turn points have angles below 55°. You can try with a smaller angle in the settings to get more turn points.
Regarding the last point: the plugin looks at some distance BEFORE and AFTER the possible turn point to determine the angle. Possibly that's the cause. For sure that will cause some points to never appear as turn points (in case of zig zags with short legs).
Anyway, as I've said the plugin does a good job, not a perfect job. I've been using it for years myself. I won't start hunting around to find the reason for all non-catches; it's a heuristics not a life-critical function.


I tried to create courses from .fit files of several runs on the same trajectory. The trajectory in reality consists of only turns of (almost) perfect right angles.

There is a right turn which never appears as a turn even if I use a .fit file of four laps.

Do you implicitly mean OMB that this problem may come from the way how 910XT logs trackpoints?

For testing purposes I chose lots of numbers from 0°to 90* as "create turns when ....", but with the same result.

My last idea is to try to filter my activity files in another software like Mapsource to change the characteristics of tinily wobbling tracks....
Cheers,
Zoltan
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Re: 2 Questions: Courses navigation and display of courses

Postby Tisztul_A_Visztula » Wed Aug 28, 2013 2:45 pm

Maybe I could figure out what is happening with some sort of reverse engineering.

The whole thing is not about wobbling, but my problem comes from the fact that the trajectory is like going north, turn right, go 60m to east, then turn left and go to north again. I guess that 60m is simply too short for the algorithm.
I have a very similar turn-combination at another place of this course, where the stretch is not 60m, but 80m and the right turn appear twice from the 4 laps. It seems that the threshold is around 70-75m. I mean the distance of the stretch which has to have a different direction than the previous direction.

Am i right, OMB?
Cheers,
Zoltan
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Re: 2 Questions: Courses navigation and display of courses

Postby old_man_biking » Fri Aug 30, 2013 3:10 am

Not sure if I understand your post.
Anyway, I've answered your parallel email.

Cheers,
OMB
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Re: 2 Questions: Courses navigation and display of courses

Postby Tisztul_A_Visztula » Fri Aug 30, 2013 6:25 am

My question was simply what is threshold distance (defined as XXX) in cases when one runs in a direction, ha makes a 90°turn (right or left) and after XXX meters he makes another 90°turn but to the opposite way (ie left or right respectively), so he continues his run in the original direction.

My low sample experience showed me that if this zigzag happens, XXX in real life should be more than 60 meters for W&C to potentially identify the turns. On the other hand 80 meters a sa distnace in real life seems to be enough in some cases. Maybe 100m as a distance always triggers the identification of the turns, but I dont have that sort of example among my runs.

Therefore I dared to assume that the threshold XXX may be like 70-75 meters.

Or is it a totally different algorithm behind, which does not have any distance threshold like this?
Cheers,
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