Training Load

by mechgt

Downloads: 12,931 (48) • Reviews: 18

Version:

2.0.7

Updated:

Aug 26, 2015

Training Load Plugin

Postby smaryka » Sat Aug 29, 2009 5:52 am

Zero wrote:Essentially I'm trying to figure out:
- How long it takes for me to fully recover empirically rather than just based on feel.
- How I can identify I'm falling into a pit and risk overdoing it leading up to major races (eg, National Marathon Championships on 20/09, State Marathon Championships on 4/10, SC6Hour on 24/10).


Google more on tapering for events, Friel's blog has some good stuff. If you know your training schedule ahead of time, you can input those workouts and their associated TRIMP values into ST and Training Load will give you projected CTL/ATL/TSB. Then you can decide if your TSB is too negative or not. Even with the numbers, there is no such thing as "empirical-only" analysis; tapering is part art and part science and the trick is to know yourself well.

You seem to be training for major events (and wanting to do well), so I have to assume you're following a schedule complete with rest/recovery days/weeks and heavy days/weeks? Off-hand I'd say you're going to have to pick one of the above events as your A-race and the other two will either be done as training or without goals. It's going to be pretty hard to hold a peak from 20/09 to 24/10 without losing too much fitness if you taper before the first event and recover between events. YMMV of course. I'm guessing you don't have a coach?
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Postby Zero » Sat Aug 29, 2009 6:57 am

jibberjim wrote:You did an event with a TSS of ~1550 !!


It lies. I've just spent the last couple of hours going through and cleaning up a heap of data, and then figured out a good formula for getting TRIMP data that was more equivalent to my real TSS figures.

Before, I was getting TRIMP figures of around 900 for a 6 hour enduro - yea, as you can tell, that's not quite right. So I've gone through, looked at HR data, compared it to real data using FT, and have figures that are now much closer.

The result is TRIMP being calculated from the following table:
0-140: 0.3
-152: 0.7
-160: 0.91
-170: 1.125
-174: 1.333
-180: 1.5
-inf: 1.75

The result is TSS values much closer to the data I get out of my PowerTap when I'm on the road (I don't have one on my XC bikes, which was why I was using TRIMP right across the board - standardization).


I'll post the updated graphs in a few minutes, but they're much more... readable.

Edit: Here we go - updated graphs. As you can see, they look much more reasonable with these TSS values.
http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/97682/sportt ... 8-29-2.png
http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/97682/sportt ... ed%202.png

I've left the original ones up so you can compare - but this now makes a fair bit more sense in the actual numbers.

smaryka wrote:Google more on tapering for events, Friel's blog has some good stuff.

Yeah, tapering is one of those things I've never quite got the hang of properly.

smaryka wrote:If you know your training schedule ahead of time, you can input those workouts and their associated TRIMP values into ST and Training Load will give you projected CTL/ATL/TSB. Then you can decide if your TSB is too negative or not.

Good thinking, will give that a go.

smaryka wrote:You seem to be training for major events (and wanting to do well), so I have to assume you're following a schedule complete with rest/recovery days/weeks and heavy days/weeks?

Yep. It's typically 5 4/5 day microcycles and a 7 day rest cycle (ie, 4 week base/build periods).

smaryka wrote:Off-hand I'd say you're going to have to pick one of the above events as your A-race and the other two will either be done as training or without goals.

Aus Champs is kinda B+, Vic Champs B, SC6Hr A, then my next big races are in Jan 2010 and April 2010 (Aus XCC champs and Vic XCO champs).

smaryka wrote:I'm guessing you don't have a coach?

Yeah, looked at it for this year but didn't see the point in paying for a coach when I was recovering from serious overtraining. My performances right now are still about 5-10 positions lower than this time 11 months ago.
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Postby smaryka » Sun Aug 30, 2009 3:35 pm

Zero wrote:Yeah, looked at it for this year but didn't see the point in paying for a coach when I was recovering from serious overtraining. My performances right now are still about 5-10 positions lower than this time 11 months ago.


Ah, definitely a good reason then to err on the safe side and taper more and take it easy between your races in the next month. If they are Bish races, then a good opportunity to try out a good taper plan and see how it goes, then you should be able to nail it for your bigger races in the new year.

Overtraining can take a long time to recover from! :(
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Postby trell » Mon Aug 31, 2009 12:55 pm

In recent months I have no the HR data.
How can I analyze my training for cycling?
Where and how can I set up the Trimp value/data?

In plugin setting page i selected trimp but nothing happen.
The trimp plugin does not work without hr data.

thx
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Postby smaryka » Mon Aug 31, 2009 1:07 pm

trell wrote:In recent months I have no the HR data.
How can I analyze my training for cycling?
Where and how can I set up the Trimp value/data?

In plugin setting page i selected trimp but nothing happen.
The trimp plugin does not work without hr data.

thx


If you've got some previous experience with TRIMP and training load, you can estimate what each workout is "worth" then type in the activity summary TRIMP=X where X is the number.

If you have no previous experience, don't have HR or power or pace... I think you're best just creating your own scale of intensity and using that instead. Harder/longer workouts get bigger numbers, easy/short workouts get smaller numbers.

A TRIMP or TSS (training stress score) of 100 is defined as an hour spent at threshold -- i.e., racing a 40km TT pace, or 10k running race. In the Training Load chart, you can see that 0-100 is "low", 100-200 is "medium", 200-300 is "high" and anything above that is an "epic" workout.

From Coggan (the TSS guy):
100- low (easy to recover by following day)
100-200 medium (some residual fatigue may be present the next day, but gone by 2nd day)
200-300 high (some residual fatigue may be present even after 2 days)
300+ epic (residual fatigue lasting several days likely)


So you'll have to work out for yourself how difficult a workout is based on that scale, how you feel, how hard you went or how long the workout was.

Read back through the thread for some links on TRIMP/TSS to learn more about the basis for it.
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Postby mechgt » Mon Aug 31, 2009 1:58 pm

trell wrote:In recent months I have no the HR data.
How can I analyze my training for cycling?
Where and how can I set up the Trimp value/data?

In plugin setting page i selected trimp but nothing happen.
The trimp plugin does not work without hr data.

thx


In addition to smaryka's reply, if you have absolutely no idea what to put but you want something there, you can also manually enter your avg HR and Training Load will calculate from that. This will give you a guesstimate (assumes your entire activity duration at avg HR.)

I generally type TRIMP= somewhere in the notes field as smaryka mentioned since this typically occurs when my batteries die or I forget my HR strap or something like that and I have an idea of what TRIMP should be for the activity.
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Postby trell » Mon Aug 31, 2009 2:04 pm

I don't understand how to use it...
smaryka wrote:If you've got some previous experience with TRIMP and training load, you can estimate what each workout is "worth" then type in the activity summary TRIMP=X where X is the number.


In my summary there is not the "field" trimp

Can I calculate it? and where? must i create a new "categories"?
If you have no previous experience, don't have HR or power or pace... I think you're best just creating your own scale of intensity and using that instead. Harder/longer workouts get bigger numbers, easy/short workouts get smaller numbers.

In cycling I have the speed (average), and power calculate with the plugin...
how can I traslate it in trimp
but the big problem is where i set, calculate, the trimp?

A TRIMP or TSS (training stress score) of 100 is defined as an hour spent at threshold -- i.e., racing a 40km TT pace, or 10k running race. In the Training Load chart, you can see that 0-100 is "low", 100-200 is "medium", 200-300 is "high" and anything above that is an "epic" workout.

From Coggan (the TSS guy):
100- low (easy to recover by following day)
100-200 medium (some residual fatigue may be present the next day, but gone by 2nd day)
200-300 high (some residual fatigue may be present even after 2 days)
300+ epic (residual fatigue lasting several days likely)


So you'll have to work out for yourself how difficult a workout is based on that scale, how you feel, how hard you went or how long the workout was.

Read back through the thread for some links on TRIMP/TSS to learn more about the basis for it.
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Postby trell » Mon Aug 31, 2009 2:48 pm

mechgt wrote:
trell wrote:In recent months I have no the HR data.
How can I analyze my training for cycling?
Where and how can I set up the Trimp value/data?

In plugin setting page i selected trimp but nothing happen.
The trimp plugin does not work without hr data.

thx


In addition to smaryka's reply, if you have absolutely no idea what to put but you want something there, you can also manually enter your avg HR and Training Load will calculate from that. This will give you a guesstimate (assumes your entire activity duration at avg HR.)

I generally type TRIMP= somewhere in the notes field as smaryka mentioned since this typically occurs when my batteries die or I forget my HR strap or something like that and I have an idea of what TRIMP should be for the activity.

With TRIMP

It would be useful with an option for automatic calculation... time, power factor, not only hr...
It's hard manually edit all old trainings
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Postby smaryka » Mon Aug 31, 2009 3:32 pm

trell wrote:I don't understand how to use it...
In my summary there is not the "field" trimp

Can I calculate it? and where? must i create a new "categories"?

In cycling I have the speed (average), and power calculate with the plugin...
how can I traslate it in trimp
but the big problem is where i set, calculate, the trimp?


You literally type TRIMP=100 in the Notes area for a workout where the TRIMP should be 100.

The Training Load plugin calculates TRIMP from HR. Other software calculates it from powermeter information (or pace information if you're using a Garmin for running). Both these methods use specific formulas to take raw data and make it into a TRIMP. AFAIK, there's no other easy way to calculate it unless you want to develop some algorithms yourself related to speed on the bike (which I think is actually a bad idea, as speed is extremely affected by weather, hills, winds, road conditions, even the bike you ride, so basically using speed for cycling will be next to useless).

If you'd read the links above, you'd understand that part of the calculation for TRIMP from powermeter data includes knowing what your own threshold power is. I'm guessing you probably don't know it, right? So in the absence of that, all other power data from the plugin is useless. Therefore calculating TRIMP from power data is useless unless you know that an hour spent at XX watts is a "hard workout" while 2 hours spent at YY watts is an "easy workout", or whatever.

If you want to use the power plugin to calculate your TRIMP, you're going to have to do some testing to know what XX or YY watts means. Only then will you have any useful TRIMP. And this is why I said you should calculate it based more on feel, because your intuitive understanding of how your body recovers after certain workouts is going to be much more useful than any arbitrary watts from the power plugin.

Frankly I think you're just better off using the 100-300+ scale I described above to come up with your figures. The whole point of TRIMP is to measure how much training you do, and how it all adds up so you can see how tired/rested you are at any given time. Once you take away the calculations based on HR and power (from a real powermeter), you take away the "science". So no matter what you do, your TRIMP will at best be an estimate.
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Postby TomasR » Tue Sep 01, 2009 1:35 am

Me like this plugin. Me do.

In a non technical view since I have not set myself up to really dig into the numbers (yet).

My use is simple - the blue graph is on the rise - me like :D
The blue graph dip to much - me must run. :)

The brown graph - trying to correlate to my fatigue. Not sure yet. :?

The red line, it is pretty... :wink:
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Postby trell » Tue Sep 01, 2009 3:50 am

The data will not be perfect in absolute, but the possibility of a custom TRIMP is welcome. 8)
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How to set Target date

Postby OTveit » Tue Sep 01, 2009 2:26 pm

Am I really missing it? Where can I set Target date? I select a date in the furture on my calandar, but there are no "Set Target Date" under tasks as explained...?
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Re: How to set Target date

Postby mechgt » Tue Sep 01, 2009 2:35 pm

OTveit wrote:Am I really missing it? Where can I set Target date? I select a date in the furture on my calandar, but there are no "Set Target Date" under tasks as explained...?


See image below. Ignore the 'Export' link, as you won't have that yet; but 'Set Target Date' should be shown as in the image below.
Image
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Postby ressac » Sun Oct 25, 2009 7:26 am

Thank you and congratulations for this great plugin!

I don't own a powermeter yet, but i try to monitor my estimated watts using this plugin
http://www.sporttracks-plugins.com/Spor ... 520Plugin/

It's not a real powermeter, of course, but i've seen it provides a relatively consistent power measurement.

Is it possible to count TRIMP from these power readings automatically?
The reason i'm asking this, is because it'll take into account better, the shorter and more intense workouts like sprints or short intervals.
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Postby mechgt » Sun Oct 25, 2009 8:19 am

Activity scores can be calculated using Dr. Andy Coggan's TSS algorihtm. I have inadvertantly used the improper vocabulary in Training Load (TSS or Training Stress Score refers to Dr. Coggan's power calculation which TL does not do, it should instead be labeled TRIMP.) Currently TSS is the 'standard' for cycling power & activity stress scoring. TL however at the moment does not do this, but I'm looking into it, and I suspect that it'll make it into the plugin at some point. It is one of my goals, but I do not have a schedule and there are a few more technical things to figure out first to ensure it's usable.

I do not know of any established algorithms to calculate activity scores based off of a power track in a similar manner to TRIMP though (time in zone, only input is the power track, etc.)
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Postby ressac » Sun Oct 25, 2009 8:30 am

mechgt, i mean something similar as WKO+.

In that case, those who use a powermeter (or plan to buy one) and others who use "calculated" power readings like me, would be able to stick with SportTracks instead of using different software.
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Postby racerfern » Sun Oct 25, 2009 8:54 am

I find GPS2PowerTrack works very well with longer rides but struggles a bit with sprints and intervals. As long as you keep the big picture in mind you'll be fine.

If you use GPS2PowerTrack then you can also try the Training Planner. It calculates TSS, NP and IF based on Dr. Coggan's formulas and is accurate. Of course it's only as accurate as the data that's been passed through it so keep that in mind when planning your training.

You're right, the graph should not be labeled Training Stress Score; it should be labeled TRIMP. Although the numbers are very similar there is a difference. However, the end result being your TSB and CTL graphs are still good. I find that TL tends to make my TSB lower than it really is. Again, if you just use the graph as a guide, knowing your limitations, you'll know when you're peaking, etc.
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Postby mechgt » Thu Nov 05, 2009 2:58 pm

Ugh oh... I just got a power meter today....

:evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:

(Sorry, I couldn't help it)
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Postby ressac » Sat Dec 12, 2009 2:27 pm

Do you count your weight training sessions with this plugin?

I wonder if we should manually add some value (i.e TRIMP=80?) for the gym sessions or not to count them at all. What do you think?
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Postby racerfern » Sat Dec 12, 2009 3:13 pm

mechgt wrote:Ugh oh... I just got a power meter today....

:evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:

(Sorry, I couldn't help it)


Which one?
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Postby mechgt » Sat Dec 12, 2009 4:02 pm

racerfern wrote:
mechgt wrote:Ugh oh... I just got a power meter today....

:evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:

(Sorry, I couldn't help it)


Which one?


I picked up an iBike Pro off Craigslist.
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Postby racerfern » Sat Dec 12, 2009 6:21 pm

Good for you, that's what I use but the iAero version. Is it a Gen 3 with the red button on the bottom?
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Postby mechgt » Sat Dec 12, 2009 8:01 pm

It's a Gen II at the moment, but I'm planning to upgrade to the Gen III. I was thinking of upgrading to the iAero, but I just don't think I'd use the features (since I don't have another power meter.) Seems like I'd be better off putting that money into accessories or firmware; like the Trainer or Garmin Firmware.
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Postby racerfern » Sat Dec 12, 2009 8:56 pm

Agreed. I'm a beta tester for them so mine is an iAero but I never use it to its potential. Get an iPro with the trainer and Garmin FW and you're done. The Gen3 is a huge improvement on the Gen2.

So when is the TrainingLoad Plugin going true power based?
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Postby mechgt » Sat Dec 12, 2009 9:34 pm

racerfern wrote:So when is the TrainingLoad Plugin going true power based?


Well, I've got 2 problems:
- #1 where to store FTP. For this, I'm pretty much waiting until the next release of ST. The hope is to have custom data fields built into ST, so FTP can be stored with the athlete data which would be the proper place to store it. Solution here is to wait until ST3. It'd be a waste to build infrastructure to store FTP in plugin settings, and then have to migrate that to athlete settings in ST3. I don't want to create a mess.

- #2 How to integrate it with the existing algorithms (this is the biggest thing I've yet to figure out). Can TRIMP or HR based measurements be dispalyed with TSS/Power based measurements? I don't know that they'll be on the same scale (100 TRIMP may not be approximately equal to 100 TSS.)

For instance, some of my activities are running, and some are cycling. I might want to apply TRIMP to running activities, and TSS/power calcs to cycling activities. If TRIMP and TSS aren't on similar scale (100 TRIMP ~= 100 TSS), then one sport (algorithm) will be more heavily weighted than the other.

Training Load will continue to be HR based (so no one should worry that HR/TRIMP is going away.) However I want add some of the other studied algorithms into it (TSS, GOVSS, etc.)

I'm going to need some help figuring this one out. Thoughts anyone?
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