Effort: Heart rate vs. Pace

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Effort: Heart rate vs. Pace

Postby mdb77a » Sat Jan 23, 2016 4:24 pm

I know this has been discussed, but I can't seem to sort through my issue. Here's an example of the problem. I have two runs. They are the same distance (both marathons). One workout was manually created. The other used a GPS with HR.

Race A (manually created): Pace - 8:44; Effort - 366
Race B (created using GPS): Level Pace - 8:32; Effort - 210; Avg HR - 125 (80% max)

I'm guessing that the difference has something to do with the zones for my pace and HR. So here are the zones:
Pace:
z1 - 11:00+ (recovery)
z2 - 9:30-11:00 (easy)
z3 - 8:45 - 9:30 (marathon pace)
z4 - 8:15 - 8:45 (lt / tempo)
z5 - < 8:15 (speed)

HR:
z1 - < 105 (recovery)
z2 - 105 - 117 (easy)
z3 - 117 -130 (marathon pace)
z4 - 130 - 137 (lt / tempo)
z5 - 137+ (speed)

My question is, why are the effort levels so vastly different? If it is the zones, what about the zones is throwing things so wildly off?

Thanks for any help.

mb
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Re: Effort: Heart rate vs. Pace

Postby the5krunner » Sat Jan 23, 2016 4:55 pm

not sure i understand what you are asking
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Re: Effort: Heart rate vs. Pace

Postby mdb77a » Sat Jan 23, 2016 7:32 pm

Sorry it it was't clear, and clearly it wasn't. Basically, I have two runs of identical distance and at similar paces and similar overall times (< 3% difference in pace and total time). Yet the "effort" calculated by SportTracks for the two runs differs by almost 75%. That doesn't make sense to me. I suspect that the difference is because the "effort" for one run was calculated by using pace and the "effort" for the other was calculated using heart rate. But I'm trying to figure out how the two "efforts" could be so vastly different for similar runs. I've seen this pretty consistently in my log: Runs that have the "effort" based on pace are routinely higher than the "effort" for similar runs calculated by HR. How does that happen, and can it be fixed?

Thanks,

mb
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Re: Effort: Heart rate vs. Pace

Postby philipshambrook » Sat Jan 23, 2016 8:40 pm

Those heart rates look quite low. How did you arrive at those? Is your max heart rate really that low?
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Re: Effort: Heart rate vs. Pace

Postby mdb77a » Sat Jan 23, 2016 11:43 pm

My max is in the high 150s. Yes, its lower than most folks. I determined it using the usual HR tests. My speed stuff usually finishes in the 140s or 150s.
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Re: Effort: Heart rate vs. Pace

Postby admin » Sun Jan 24, 2016 11:36 am

Differences in effort calculated by heart rate vs. pace come down to one or the other being out of whack.

- heart rate is calculated based on resting / maximum heartrate
- pace is calculated based on pace zones for the particular sport.

You can review these under "My Acccount" on the Training page.

If both of these look accurate to where you want them, or hope they should be, it may be time to recalibrate with a threshold test to check that.
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Re: Effort: Heart rate vs. Pace

Postby admin » Sun Jan 24, 2016 11:42 am

Another way to say this is it may be time to increase the pace on some of your pace zones,
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Re: Effort: Heart rate vs. Pace

Postby mdb77a » Sun Jan 24, 2016 4:25 pm

Thanks a lot... that is helpful. I am gong to try to tweak some things to get things consistent. Couple of questions: When you calculate effort from HR, does it matter what the HR zones are at all, or just the resting and max rates? Also, how would changing the pace zones change the calculated effort because I can set up two zones or twenty zones and use them for any number of types of runs? (I understand that you have some proprietary algorithms and I'm not asking you for any of that. Just looking for some information to help me tweak things.)
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Re: Effort: Heart rate vs. Pace

Postby the5krunner » Sun Jan 24, 2016 7:44 pm

mdb77a wrote:Thanks a lot... that is helpful. I am gong to try to tweak some things to get things consistent. Couple of questions: When you calculate effort from HR, does it matter what the HR zones are at all, or just the resting and max rates? Also, how would changing the pace zones change the calculated effort because I can set up two zones or twenty zones and use them for any number of types of runs? (I understand that you have some proprietary algorithms and I'm not asking you for any of that. Just looking for some information to help me tweak things.)


hr: yes it matters where the zones are if you calc yourself outside of sporttracks. they are %ages of the difference between your rest and max
pace: zones should sort of tie in with how you use them to stimulate certain functions in your body.

if you have correctly used a pace calculator then your pace zones should be right
I would imagine, as others said, that the fault lies in your HRmax or rest.

how old are you
how long have you run for / at what kind of level such that it would explain a low HRmax.
how have you found your HRmax. it's quite hard to get your hrmax.

ps google RPE chart....rate of perceived exertion. zones should tie in to that too. ish.
Last edited by the5krunner on Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Effort: Heart rate vs. Pace

Postby admin » Mon Jan 25, 2016 9:10 am

Effort for heartrate is calculated from min/max HR. Zones are not used.

Zones are proportional, so you can set up five or seven, it will still only allow a maximum number of effort (2/per minute) at the maximum intensity.
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Re: Effort: Heart rate vs. Pace

Postby mdb77a » Mon Jan 25, 2016 10:22 pm

admin: That seems reasonable. I'm going to try tweaking the HR and pace zones to see if I can get the effort levels to line up a little better, so that the numbers are more useful.

the5krunner: To find my HR max, I used the standard formula, but the number it spit out was way too high for me. If my HR heart hit 175 or 180 like the formulas say, I'd probably be in the ER. I did a HR test run using successive short distances at max effort and my HR topped out in the mid-150s so I guesstimated that it was about 160. Thing is, its not lower than that, and if its higher than that then the effort levels by pace would be even farther off from the effort levels by HR. My guess is that my pace zones are the culprit, so I'm playing with those a little.
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Re: Effort: Heart rate vs. Pace

Postby philipshambrook » Tue Jan 26, 2016 3:56 pm

After a suitable warm up run 5km as hard and as fast as you can on a flat level course. Then use something like - https://www.mcmillanrunning.com/index.p ... /calculate
to calculate your paces.

If you take your average heart rate for the last 3 kms of the 5 km effort this will approximate your lactate heart rate threshold. Ignoring all the jargon, you can use this number to calculate training zones that should better match with the pace zones. Use a site like this
http://mtbcoach.com/training-sessions/zone-calculator/
to enter that number to give you your HR training zones.

There is a lot science behind this and it is easy to get over complicated. These zones will be close enough for most of us. If you really want better numbers you need to get to a lab and hooked up to expired gas analysers.
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Re: Effort: Heart rate vs. Pace

Postby the5krunner » Sat Dec 22, 2018 5:51 am

mdb77a wrote:admin: That seems reasonable. I'm going to try tweaking the HR and pace zones to see if I can get the effort levels to line up a little better, so that the numbers are more useful.

the5krunner: To find my HR max, I used the standard formula, but the number it spit out was way too high for me. If my HR heart hit 175 or 180 like the formulas say, I'd probably be in the ER. I did a HR test run using successive short distances at max effort and my HR topped out in the mid-150s so I guesstimated that it was about 160. Thing is, its not lower than that, and if its higher than that then the effort levels by pace would be even farther off from the effort levels by HR. My guess is that my pace zones are the culprit, so I'm playing with those a little.


yep do what PhiSharnbrook says

your HRmax point is intersting tho. people normally say the 220-age formula gives a HRmax that is too low.
assuming you are fit. i'd still say that the HRmax from 220-age (higher than yours) may be correct.

with zones from methods actually getting the zone 2/zone 3 point right is pretty crucial if you are doing lots of miles. you can get this point approx with RPE and then fine tune it with some stats and paying attention to your body.
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Re: Effort: Heart rate vs. Pace

Postby ridera » Wed Dec 26, 2018 12:45 pm

May I suggest you read the article I wrote some years ago on the HR and runners. https://www.ridersite.org/SBTraining/He ... entals.pdf

It will answer many of your questions and go into how to determine your personal HR. The standard deviation is about =+/- 10bpm. So, using the formula for determining your HRmax is useless. Your rate can be considerably different than the formula predicts. You'll find the generally excepted formula is 207 - .7 x your age, not the old 210 - your age.

After all is said, if you do a thorough search, you'll not find any world-class runners train based on HR zones. The heart simply responds to the need, it is not the limiting factor for your performance.
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